Knee pain/new ride

[Russell160]

I've started suffering knee pain, just behind the kneecap. Both knees at first, now just left after a couple of days rest. Have looked at some of the threads on this topic already and so I'm going to go to a GP and/or physio but wanted to check out the bike wisdom here first. The pain has started after I've made a number of changes all at once:
i)Switching from flats to SPD clipless. The right foot feels a bit 'awkward'.
ii)Switching from an old steel Coverntry Eagle tourer (with triple chainset) to a light aluminium Carrera (used, 3 yo) with twin chainset.
iii)Extending my commute from 5 miles each way to 12 miles each way, which now includes a long slow seated climb. I am seriously tired at the end of it, and can really feel my quads.
iv)Have also realised saddle was a bit low.
The query is, which of these is most likely culprit, and in what order should I make changes?

[gilesjuk]

Combination of all of them.

Clipless results in knee pain if you have the cleat positions wrong. SPD's need adjustment as the float is lower than some. I use Time as the cleats dont need so much adjustment.

Saddle too slow will result in knee pain.

When pedalling slow you put more strain and pressure on your knees. Pedal faster or use a lower gear.

Get the saddle right first, then try to get the cleat position right. As a rough guide sit on a table or wall where you can swing your legs, see what their natural positions are and work out the alignment of the cleats such that the cleats point directly ahead.

[piedwagtail91]

as above but i would try adjusting the right cleat .your feet should feel completely natural with no twisting or awkward feeling when you're pedaling

[reohn2]

as above but i would try adjusting the right cleat .your feet should feel completely natural with no twisting or awkward feeling when you're pedaling

Yep same here.

[stoobs]

I agree with all of the above. The SPD angle can be quite tough if you've got it wrong.

Also, be careful about saddle height. I started to get knee pain, and couldn't work it out, then realised that the seat pin had been sliding down imperceptibly over a couple of months. It was only about 2cm shorter, but once I had corrected it, I was fine again.

[pete75]

If you were fine on your old bike why not jsut go back to it?
If parts are worn out etc why not replace them.
If a bike suits you and is comfortable to ride then it's worth keeping.

[Russell160]

Thanks for your advice, I'll give all these a try.
Going back to my old bike might be an option, but it's about 7lbs heavier than my 'new' one, and also doesn't fit quite right anyway: I get neck pain with it. Doh. I also want to take the step up to clipless; hopefully I can iron out these teething probs, might take it back to helpful LBS where I got the SPDs if I can't sort it myself.

[gilesjuk]

With the old clipless systems which nailed onto the shoes the rider would ride the bike for a while to make marks on the soles of the shoes. Then these marks would be used to judge where to place the cleat.

This can still work to a point, might be worth a go. Some SPD shoes have a cover which would be ideal to use to determine the position. Fit these and then ride and see where the wear marks are.

[ddddddd]

a long slow seated climb. I am seriously tired at the end of it, and can really feel my quads.

If you are pushing too hard, in too high a gear, then this is really tough on the knees. This seems likely to me, since you have changed from triple to double chainset.

Multiply the problem by x, for the saddle being too low.

If you can feel it in your quads, then you might be overdoing the pulling up on the pedals (that SPDs now enable you to do)? Or, as I suggested above, it is the use of too high a gear. Sitting with too high a gear, leads to strain in pushing the pedal forward. - It's hard to push through the dead spot at the top of the stroke.

So any, or all, of these three things could cause pain as you describe.

Pushing too high a gear.
Saddle too low.
Pulling up forcefully.

Often, if the angle of the foot is twisted, then the pain comes on at the side of the kneecap.

If the pedals are new, then it's unlikely they are bent, but this (or a bent crank) can be an insidious cause of knee pain. - If you only ride one bike, then all too easily, your body adapts to the wonky motion. You only notice it when you ride a bike that's okay, which then feels wrong!

[Speshact]

I had knee pain having changed to SPDs - just one knee. To get accustomed to SPDs I'd lowered the saddle a bit from my usual riding height. One day I rode in to work and stopped several times along the route raising the saddle a bit each time. I ended up having raised it an inch - slightly beyond the height I used to have it at before SPDs. Less pain but still a little there. I tried the pedals on another bike to see if the cranks were bent. Pain still there. I did some stretching exercises and gave a day or two's rest. Pain started to go away and continuing with riding with a high cadence and doing streching exercises got to have no pain at all. I wonder if I've slightly altered my riding position with that foot or worked a bit more of a certain muscle because it has to work more in that clipped in position. Anyway, now the SPDs are second nature and very comfortable.

Haven't yet got around to trying the commute without SPDs to see how great the difference feels now I'm used to SPDs.

[PJ520]

Do you have organizations in your area that do bike fitting? It sounds a bit daft but I paid 100 dollars to have my Trek 520 that I'd had for two years fitted. This involved attaching my bike to a computer trainer and the bloke doing the fitting took all kinds of measurements: leg angles etc. while I rode. Then made adjustments while I rode some more. I was surprised: I thought my seat was too high and my bars too low. Turns out it was the opposite, we ended up lowering my bars a smidgin and raising the seat. It was like getting a new bike. Something like this could help with your knee problem. It could save you weeks of fiddling and trying different stuff. You may need to adjust the length of your stem, for example. The fitter will know if the clips on your shoes are positioned properly, not something most of us give much thought to.

[Russell160]

Thanks for all your advice. It all makes sense: with the novelty of SPDs I was pulling up a lot on the pedal stroke and logically this is going to affect my knees. My plan of action this week is:
-adjust saddle
-adjust SPDs
take a less strenuous route, mainly on the flat to see how it goes. If all well, try climb route.
-if still problems, swap triple chainset onto this bike. Nice weekend job.
-last resort: switch back to flats.
Interestingly, I was out on Sunday on my mountain bike, platform pedals, quite a strenuous ride but no pain on the knees at all. Ergo, by a process of elimination, spds are prime suspect.
Re our american friends suggestion of a fitting service: I don't know anywhere that does this in North West England. Any suggestions?

[PW]

No, but I'd sit on the edge of a table or something, look how the feet lie, and adjust the cleats so they point forwards with the foot in its natural position. The saddle may need to be just a shade higher with SPDs because the shoe soles are thicker than the old type we used with toeclips. I don't have any problems, but I'm using Time ATACs which have more sideways float than the SPD design.

[PJ520]

Sounds like somebody could make a few quid with a fitting service! Good luck with your experiments.

[melw1]

North West England -near Lancashire perhaps? If so there's Paul Hewitt.... he specialises in bike fitting and costs £50 (unless you buy a bike as well, when it's free).