what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
Bonefishblues
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by Bonefishblues »

Not sure any reputations have been trashed - IIRC there are a number of very positive things being said about him and his work, but he does have something of a (AIUI fair) reputation for not being the speediest builder one will ever meet. I've certainly seen these comments previously.

He clearly has a full order book, so one doubts this thread will do irrevocable harm?
Last edited by Bonefishblues on 31 Mar 2018, 7:32pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cugel
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by Cugel »

JohnW wrote:
Cugel wrote:.........................."Delayed gratification" is a necessary process (and mental pleasure) if one is to deal successfully with Blighters. I know that delayed gratification is not a thing widely appreciated or practiced in the USA. :->


You voted Trump in though - didn't you..............?


Vote for that *****!? Aaaaargh!!

Happily I am not a Yank but a Limey, so feel little responsibility for the creature having attained power.

Of course we have plenty eejits of our own in British politics, many of whom have also attained a power they wield ever so badly. Is there some sort of alien ploy afoot to soften us up before they invade? Perhaps it's all some kind of Russian joke arranged by Vlad?

Personally I am old-fashioned and would revive Clement Atlee, if I had the technology. One only hopes that the Mad Scientists of California don't invent such a technology since Trump will surely use it to perpetuate hisself.

Cugel
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JohnW
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by JohnW »

neilob wrote:................. I am uncomfortable with this trial by internet because none of us have an insight into the specifics of the unfortunate events that have left the OP without his frame. In my experience, these situations are best addressed by direct communications between the parties.......................

Absolutely: +1 to that.
pwa
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by pwa »

JohnW wrote:
neilob wrote:................. I am uncomfortable with this trial by internet because none of us have an insight into the specifics of the unfortunate events that have left the OP without his frame. In my experience, these situations are best addressed by direct communications between the parties.......................

Absolutely: +1 to that.

But if you live several thousand miles away and the frame builder has taken your money and become evasive about delivery you have good reason to ask people who live closer what is happening.
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by JohnW »

pwa wrote:
JohnW wrote:
neilob wrote:................. I am uncomfortable with this trial by internet because none of us have an insight into the specifics of the unfortunate events that have left the OP without his frame. In my experience, these situations are best addressed by direct communications between the parties.......................

Absolutely: +1 to that.

But if you live several thousand miles away and the frame builder has taken your money and become evasive about delivery you have good reason to ask people who live closer what is happening.

Oh -yes - true - it's not the question, it's some of the answers......................I think that what Neilob posts is very reasonable, without being personal.
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Cugel
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by Cugel »

JohnW wrote:
pwa wrote:
JohnW wrote:Absolutely: +1 to that.

But if you live several thousand miles away and the frame builder has taken your money and become evasive about delivery you have good reason to ask people who live closer what is happening.

Oh -yes - true - it's not the question, it's some of the answers......................I think that what Neilob posts is very reasonable, without being personal.


"Personal"? What does that mean? No one has said anything unreasonable or nasty, have they?

Personally :-) I think the internet complaint horn can be useful. I remember the days when it was very easy for a business to badly disappoint a customer with no practical comeback for that customer, unless they were rich enough to afford the courts.

Of course, any internet complaining should remain based in facts and actual events. The OP related some. Of course, the facts he related to us are from his point of view; but the subject of the complain can easily answer if he feels the facts are other than as stated.

No one has dismissed Mr Goff out of hand or named him villain. On the other hand, perhaps I may look elsewhere for a frame just now. Would that be unreasonable?

****
One hopes the OP can find a form of communication to stimulate Mr Goff in supplying the frame, returning the deposit .... or offering a different version of the facts. Meanwhile, I for one am grateful to those who point out potential financial pitfalls in the minefield of remote shopping, whatever the causes or justifications of the glitches.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
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Paulatic
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by Paulatic »

Cugel wrote:
JohnW wrote:
pwa wrote:But if you live several thousand miles away and the frame builder has taken your money and become evasive about delivery you have good reason to ask people who live closer what is happening.

Oh -yes - true - it's not the question, it's some of the answers......................I think that what Neilob posts is very reasonable, without being personal.


"Personal"? What does that mean? No one has said anything unreasonable or nasty, have they?

Personally :-) I think the internet complaint horn can be useful. I remember the days when it was very easy for a business to badly disappoint a customer with no practical comeback for that customer, unless they were rich enough to afford the courts.

Of course, any internet complaining should remain based in facts and actual events. The OP related some. Of course, the facts he related to us are from his point of view; but the subject of the complain can easily answer if he feels the facts are other than as stated.

No one has dismissed Mr Goff out of hand or named him villain. On the other hand, perhaps I may look elsewhere for a frame just now. Would that be unreasonable?

****
One hopes the OP can find a form of communication to stimulate Mr Goff in supplying the frame, returning the deposit .... or offering a different version of the facts. Meanwhile, I for one am grateful to those who point out potential financial pitfalls in the minefield of remote shopping, whatever the causes or justifications of the glitches.

Cugel


+1. Very nicely put Mr Cugel
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Cyril Haearn
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Back to facts and price calculation? How is the selling price of a frame calculated?
% material, labour, overheads, profit
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tatanab
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by tatanab »

Cyril Haearn wrote:Back to facts and price calculation? How is the selling price of a frame calculated?
% material, labour, overheads, profit
I'd say that is impossible to quantify. Example 1 - a frame building business with several builders, painters etc primarily building simple lugged frames. Example 2 - Fred in a shed building frames with intricate polished stainless steel lugs, sending frames out for painting. The first is quick and cheap but with larger overheads because of the staff involved, whereas the second has much reduced overheads but much higher labour costs in hours per frame.
To see material costs, which are not high, take your pick from http://ceeway.com/
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Cugel
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by Cugel »

tatanab wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:Back to facts and price calculation? How is the selling price of a frame calculated?
% material, labour, overheads, profit
I'd say that is impossible to quantify. Example 1 - a frame building business with several builders, painters etc primarily building simple lugged frames. Example 2 - Fred in a shed building frames with intricate polished stainless steel lugs, sending frames out for painting. The first is quick and cheap but with larger overheads because of the staff involved, whereas the second has much reduced overheads but much higher labour costs in hours per frame.
To see material costs, which are not high, take your pick from http://ceeway.com/


In reality there are two models of deriving a price.

The dominant model just now is "a thing is worth what someone is willing to pay for it". In modern business mass production, the seller seeks a price which will be born by all those within the fat bit of the bell curve describing those in the market and what they will be willing to pay. Advertising is a means to fatten that bell curve more, even with the price hikes.

There's a second, now old-fashioned, model of fixing a price, which measures the actual costs of production, including the overheads of selling it and the overheads of making a living. Of course the added part of "making a living" will vary with the style of living the seller aspires to; and the efficiency of the production overheads. If the required standard of living is high and/or the production overheads large, the first model of setting a price may take over, along with increased Svengali advertising efforts straining to achieve the status of "fashionable" in what is being sold.

Examples: you can get a very good leather saddle and much else from Spa Cycles for not that much. They are just making a living whilst enjoying the pleasures of providing a good service. Alternatively you can allow yourself to be hypnotised by fashion and buy some Raphoss clothing or a top-of-the-range £12,000 bike from one of the various big manufacturers. Despite the advertising claims, the latter are not 10X better than something made of the same stuffs from Spa Cycles. Those firms are only just making things as their true love is making money.

On the other hand, many believe a bike to be a frock and will therefore pay the premium for it being fashionable, to impress (and depress) the many other fashionistas, as they promenade, pose and preen on the consumer catwalks.

***
I'm just off out on the Sunday run now, aboard a £1000 bike, dressed in PlanetX and Aldi merino of low price and high function. :-)

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
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pwa
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by pwa »

With a UK made bike frame, made to the buyer's individual requirements, you are paying someone expecting a UK lifestyle to do some admin work, possibly do a few drawings, machine the tubes and join them together with the care the buyer expects, then do all the finishing touches and send it to a paint facility, get it back and possibly pack it for shipping. There is going to be a lot of faff in that and I would not expect it to be cheap. Add on the materials and the sort of prices you see from most framebuilders become acceptable. S. Goffs prices are similar to what you can pay for an off-the-peg Taiwanese made frame elsewhere, so it's not surprising if he has too many customers.
Bonefishblues
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by Bonefishblues »

pwa wrote:With a UK made bike frame, made to the buyer's individual requirements, you are paying someone expecting a UK lifestyle to do some admin work, possibly do a few drawings, machine the tubes and join them together with the care the buyer expects, then do all the finishing touches and send it to a paint facility, get it back and possibly pack it for shipping. There is going to be a lot of faff in that and I would not expect it to be cheap. Add on the materials and the sort of prices you see from most framebuilders become acceptable. S. Goffs prices are similar to what you can pay for an off-the-peg Taiwanese made frame elsewhere, so it's not surprising if he has too many customers.

Although it occurred to me after I posted similar last night that Mr G may not be entirely assiduous in keeping his website up to date :D
Cyril Haearn
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Maybe he should regulate demand by upgrading his prices, but by how much %?
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pwa
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by pwa »

Cyril Haearn wrote:Maybe he should regulate demand by upgrading his prices, but by how much %?


Or just say "No" when his waiting list is too long.
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by reohn2 »

Not wanting to get involved any further than to say that 18months is a looooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggggggg time to wait for a bicycle frame IMO.
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