what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
reohn2
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by reohn2 »

pwa wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:Maybe he should regulate demand by upgrading his prices, but by how much %?


Or just say "No" when his waiting list is too long.

When in business and the waiting list was growing that's exactly what I would tell customers,I've always been honest with my customers and found it paid off,some would wait and some wouldn't.
A friend in the same trade as me would promise the earth,then work 7 days a week to keep to a schedule he had overburdened himself with.
Bad enough in itself but he was the most ineffecient worker I've ever met,regularly mentally and physically exhausting himself and terrified of turning work away,booked up 9 to 12 months ahead.
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Geoff.D
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by Geoff.D »

neilob wrote:I do not have any kind of relationship with Steve Goff, although I am well aware of his reputation as a top frame builder. TBH, however, I am uncomfortable with this trial by internet because none of us have an insight into the specifics of the unfortunate events that have left the OP without his frame. In my experience, these situations are best addressed by direct communications between the parties or, as a final resort, legal intervention. Trashing reputations is not a good approach.


+1
Having read the thread I don't feel that anyone has been malicious. Indeed, most of it has been treated as an academic question. But, in principle, I do agree that it's inappropriate on these pages.
An outcome of this discussion is that I wouldn't look to this chap for a frame, should I be in the market for one. But he doesn't necessarily deserve my prejudice.
thirdcrank
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by thirdcrank »

We did have a similar exchange of information about top-framebuilder Chris Marshall and I think that a combination of the internet and jungle drums helped resolve the matter.

When the late Ken Dodd was on trial for allegedly fiddling the Inland Revenue, his counsel is reported to have won over the jury with a comment about some accountants thinking they were comedians, but the KD was only a comedian and not an accountant.

We are all better at some things than others.
JohnW
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by JohnW »

thirdcrank wrote:................We are all better at some things than others.

I can make a decent cup of tea.....................! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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hujev
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by hujev »

Cugel wrote:at near 70, life seems to have been very long indeed now, considering all the stuff that's happened during it. And, despite time accelerating as one gets older, I will never give up the pleasures of delayed gratification


I liked the above philosophy as it's similar to mine.

The main problem is that after many months beyond indicated start date I was getting few, increasingly rare & delayed, and woeful replies that seemed to indicate a lessening chance of getting the frame and/or an increasing delay.

All the advice has been useful and makes me want to try to continue working on getting the actual frame. Plus the last response I had, almost a month ago, he said he'd return in several installments only £800 not £1000 because of a 'cancellation fee' (which maddened me I admit for obvious reasons)... So at least it seems there's a money problem involved.

Yes, I believe his website is very old and prices lower than possible; he quoted me ~£1150 for a 725 frame of no great design weirdness, which is fair & similar to stuff I've had made by Woodrup/Sayles and Stanforth/Cooper which were also of course waitlisted (but not 18 months).

I've heard that tubing is a significant cost in framebuilding. I also figure that a builder's got to make ~50-100 frames a year at that price to earn even a basic living after materials, shop costs, etc. So since about 15 months ago or so he said he'd order my materials next order, either he's slowed down immensely or stopped, or my order's being ignored/kept at bottom of list (unless he orders 50+ frames' worth of tubing per order). So was thinking maybe he's changed careers (=needs to make a decent living), like doing other welding work.

As far as bad businessman & good builder, it may be the case as discussed. Another exam0ple: I have a friend who's a great Italian sportscar mechanic with his own shop, but instead of advertising in the right places and doing more Maserati & Ferrari work & restorations (which is his specialty & which he sometimes does, top notch) he does more emergency fixes on VWs and so forth. Disorganization is severely affecting his business, income, and reputation.

And I always prefer to support someone who lives in a civilized country with some reasonable standards of happy living, so am willing to pay fairly and allow for oddities/contingencies at a human lever (especially in a one-man 'traditional' bicycle shop). Will withstand delays, etc. to do so. I'm not rich and drive 'bottom feeder' cars (my 2004 kia minivan works fine) to spend more on good velostuff! But most of the things I've heard as excuses in this affair are the same tragedies big & small that I've encountered myself in recent years so feel a little 'played' after a while.

I'd've understood if above-mentioned framebuilder had said 'I refuse to deal with americans because they're too dangerous a country'... (before he accepted payment or with full refund of course as we still had an intelligent president when I paid). I'd also accept an "I'm overwhelmed and will have to cancel the order to get things under control"....

(the below has nothing to do with the original topic of course but can't resist as its such an overwhelming problem to all of us)

As for trump, hell no! I didn't vote for that monster. But unfortunately - whether from befuddlement from russian propaganda, i-phone entertainment addiction, laziness, ignorance, stupidity, or malice (or the belief it'd make them richer which is why his 'rich' vote was high) - too many did, giving us the worst imaginable 'leader' in the history of the civilized world! This unfortunately lends some legitimacy to the chinese who say democracy is too problematic a way to run a country!

It's a disaster, and as an ashamed american I can say that this /really does/ reflect the stupidity and laziness of our dumbed-down society (at least enough of them), so beware! I don't understand the vacation from reality or any sort of common sense here (exception: the military, money, and power elites; they're making out like bandits as usual). Kids smash their toys in tantrums, but adults are supposed to do better; at least an 'electoral majority' of 235 million eligible voters...

Seriously, is there a less competent or intelligent or qualified one you can think of who wasn't a dictator of some 3rd world backwater or dark ages? Criminy, even in the battle between the emotionally crippled spoiled 10 year-old man-children king donald the orange and king kim the plump it's easy to see which one is smarter (though which is more evil is harder)!

And of course it's easy to see why russia likes this! (cf. 'foundations of geopolitics' to see the evil but obvious [to this old sovietologist at least] logic and purpose in their policies of the last 20 years) Divide and conquer! Obfuscate and rule! Dumb down and ..er, make it all easy or whatever. Entertainment is the religion and opiate of the masses!

So please, Britain, don't let this happen there and give us hope in democracy - or at least slow our return to the dark ages! Keep your news media objective and intelligent rather than becoming 'reality' TV or 'outrageous!' entertainment. Stay off the facebook (in vendo veritas, man!). Understand media literacy (or whatever they call it there). Be suspicious and wonder why certain groups want this or that. Read history and psychology. Remember that intelligence and knowledge isn't an old fashioned idea or too much work or an 'elitist' manipulation technique... Don't get all crazy and worried about unrealistic bizarre and intricate conspiracies to 'explain' what you don't want to believe ... shoot, this is sounding just plain nuts!, what kind of people would do that?! Seems crazy to even think about!

Sometimes I think (wish! because then we'd know what to do,. but of course the martians would deny it even if found holding the nozzle!) that Martians must be pumping some sort of dumbing-down gas into the US air is the most plausible explanation. And eviling-up gas in the kremlin and everywhere else! I don't know what to do to solve it though other than trying to keep myself in reality (trying to gently persuade the already gone seems usually futile and/or dangerous).


I'd also move to Canada or Finland if I could!
(I need boreal forests and democracy)
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TrevA
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by TrevA »

Whilst I have every sympathy for Steve Goff and the predicament he may be in, if this was me, I'd be off to the small claims court. I'd perhaps give him one final chance to refund the money or provide the frame, but this is no way to do business.

I'm not sure if it's possible for someone in the USA to use the small claims route to get their money back.
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Bonefishblues
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by Bonefishblues »

TrevA wrote:Whilst I have every sympathy for Steve Goff and the predicament he may be in, if this was me, I'd be off to the small claims court. I'd perhaps give him one final chance to refund the money or provide the frame, but this is no way to do business.

I'm not sure if it's possible for someone in the USA to use the small claims route to get their money back.

Comment deleted in light of the below.
Last edited by Bonefishblues on 2 Apr 2018, 8:44pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hujev
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by hujev »

Yes, a polite cancellation & refund has proven fruitless thus far.

A couple of months ago, after another long delay I asked if we could call the whole thing off because of the time already passed and continuing delays in communication, (which I tried to politely put as to help him overcome his backlog of work). After another delay he said he would, but asked if he could make it in several installments as money's tight, and that he'd only refund £800 of the £1000 due to the 'nonrefundable deposit'.

I then clarified my position that, as the communications had become very slow and a year and a half had passed since payment (in addition to about a year of communications and frame-talk before that) with no indication of any work done and I was tired of asking every 3 or 6 months what's going on, that that was the reason I was attempting to get a refund, and that since it seemed he was unable to build the frame that there was no reason for a 'deposit'. I can't recall if I mentioned it to him, but after so much pestering for so long and so many personal woes he seemed to be experiencing I worried that even if any frame were built it might not be to the same standards as originally anticipated.

I have heard nothing since.

Unfortunately, in my attempt to deal fairly and simply with a craftsman there was no contract other than the emails and proof of bank transfer (same as with Woodrup and Stanforth, by the way), and for £1000 any legal expenses would dwarf any recovery! So if he doesn't want to refund me any or all of the payment I'll have no recourse. Shoot, it's making me mad typing this and I'd gotten all ready to ask him nicely again...

I paid £1000 because a) I was richer in 2016 than I knew I'd be in 2017, and b) I wanted to give him enough advance to cover all expenses, in hopes of being a better customer!

Anyway, most people are reasonable and once in a while you get burned, and next time I'll do it the same & take my chances I suppose.
Bonefishblues
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by Bonefishblues »

Unacceptable behaviour, I don't blame you being mad. I also think the thread is fully justified in the light of your last post.
pwa
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by pwa »

Bonefishblues wrote:Unacceptable behaviour, I don't blame you being mad. I also think the thread is fully justified in the light of your last post.


+1
reohn2
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by reohn2 »

pwa wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Unacceptable behaviour, I don't blame you being mad. I also think the thread is fully justified in the light of your last post.


+1

+2
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Cyril Haearn
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Hello hujev

I thought you could move to Canada, I read that many US citizens had threatened to do that (how many did, will they return when Bernie is elected?)

Most members of these fora could move to Finland if they wanted to :wink:
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TrevA
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by TrevA »

The small claims court procedure means that costs are kept to a minimum. £60-70 if trying to reclaim £1000. There's no legal representation and the judge decides purely on the merits of the case. If the judge finds in your favour, you can employ court bailiffs (also called court enforcement officers) for a further small fee to recover your money or seize goods to pay off the debt.

https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for ... court-fees

I'm not sure you could make use of this from the USA, though.
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hujev
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by hujev »

Har har, the travel to show up would be more than the filing fee... If I had the timing to take a cycling tour in the UK I'd try it out of principle though... (thinking about maybe a UK tour next year though!)
Bonefishblues
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Re: what's going on with framebuilder steve goff?

Post by Bonefishblues »

Can I still use Money Claim Online if I live abroad?
If you live abroad you will still be required to provide a UK address to be able to use Money Claim Online. If you live abroad you are able to provide service address in order to fulfill this requirement, however.

So yes, subject to the above.
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