Why have disc brakes become so popular?

[Peter W]

Quote- 'Because it dumbs things down, there's no skill or ability to concern yourself with.'

Yes, that's the age old argument against making life easier, (which implies improving it), for most people. It has ALWAYS been used to prevent change, whether for good, or not so good. Obvious objections in driving for example. (My ex army old man, and proud of it.) Why do we need syncro mesh on gearboxes which dumbs down driving skills in not having too learn how to double- de-clutch? And later in life, when no one would listen to him anymore, Why the hell ABS brake systems which require no driving ability from incompetents? (Isn't that the anti-disc argument also?)

Are all changes for the better? Obviously not, but they WILL take place anyway. Which category disc brakes on road bikes falls into depends on how well sorted they eventually become. i.e. practical economically and expected longevity, as well as the obvious 'niceness' and pleasure of using them. MTB use of them is well sorted, and has proved a godsend, which nobody who rides MTB can any longer reasonably deny! It would seem obvious that road disc systems will gradually reach a similar standard. (But your pocket of resistance is noted Mr. Utility.)

[horizon]

"'Because it dumbs things down, there's no skill or ability to concern yourself with."

Yes, that's the age old argument against making life easier

That's quite a big argument. Easier might mean more complex and less work for the user - until things go wrong or need to be repaired. It does make us less competent in that sense. I know of a car that had to be scrapped because the ABS warning light didn't work - the car was otherwise fine, the brakes included. You could argue that aircon makes us less able to cope. The bicycle is user-mechanical friendly - any change to that needs to be evaluated. I don't disagree with you completely but I think you've over-simplified it. There is some value in what TUC says, IMV.

[atoz]

And does anyone replace brake-worn rims via a rebuild?

I do. Though I replace them more often due to other damage ....................

Yes - me too - I've had a well worn rim collapse under me when I applied the brakes - the sounds it made had to be heard to be believed. That was in earlier days of course, and I'm possibly a bit over-cautious now.

A lot of people replace the wheels rather than just have a rebuild, they're just consumables- like the carbon fibre frames I suppose. I think disc brakes are part of this- more affluent cyclists can afford more expensive stuff - up market road bikes with disc brakes. Goes with the Sky team kit, I suppose. Still, they're not lucky enough to have a 1960's vintage Sturmey Archer AM hub..with matching Carradice saddlebag and Brooks saddle, of course..

[reohn2]

......... There is some value in what TUC says, IMV.

In what way does it apply to disc brakes?
To be specific,what makes better brakes worse?

[reohn2]

. I think disc brakes are part of this- more affluent cyclists can afford more expensive stuff - up market road bikes with disc brakes.

As someone who builds his own wheels,rides discs and resists anything that I don't see as an improvement, and don't consider myself as affluent,I'm struggling to understand such a statement.

Goes with the Sky team kit, I suppose

BTW,the Sky team don't ride discs.

[busb]

An idea whose time has come (in marketing speak)?
Having ridden bikes for over 50 years, poor braking was at the top of my list of potential improvements. Poor shifting then lighting followed. I bought a Claud Butler racing bike for £54 back in 1973 that had centre-pull brakes - these were an incremental improvement over the rather rubbish single pivot side pull. I had the frame refurbished - rack mounts & canterlever bosses brazed onto the Reynolds 531 frame as well as the rear end widened.
My 1st MTB had CL brakes on the front but some awful contraption behind the bottom bracket for a sorry excuse for a rear brake that just collected mud due to its position. My next MTB had V brakes (IIRC - invented by Marinovator but never caught on until Shimano & others sold them) that were a considerable improvement & were also much easier to set up without having to mess with those infernal straddle cables!
Nearly 5 years ago, I bought a Ridgeback hybrid - not my 1st experience of discs but my 1st of discs that actually worked. They are yet to be bled. This bike was the 1st I owned where braking ceased to be an issue, along with now well-established index gearing & LED lights. What impressed me was the so-called modulation rather than the sheer stopping power. My drop-bar bike bought last year has thru-axles & hydro discs. The levers are very complex but the brakes work well from the hoods if not as powerfully as those on the hybrid.
Are hydro discs problem-free? Nope! If using 3 layer rotors, I've needed to match the pads carefully or else they squeal rather than slow me down. The pads have been very easy to replace as long as you prise the pistons apart 1st. I'll eventually have to bleed them myself but You Tube is our friend for such tasks.
As an aside, I've been surprised just how many disc-brakes bikes have been used in the TdF this year on the flatter stages but not by Sky as has been pointed out.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I guess some marketing type people spotted a way to introduce a USP on a road bike. They spun the idea, to make it sound appealing, and it worked. So everyone else started producing disc braked road bikes to keep up. I really hate disc brakes on a road bike. They are totally unnecessary, and increase complexity of a system that doesn’t need it.

[Brucey]

….As an aside, I've been surprised just how many disc-brakes bikes have been used in the TdF this year on the flatter stages but not by Sky as has been pointed out.

some folk are surprised the other way, i.e. they predicted that 'everyone in the peloton would use discs as soon as they were allowed to'.

In the giro there was (IIRC) one team that used disc brakes exclusively and one or two others that had them as an option (rider choice). There are more teams using them in the TdF ( about three teams seem to be mostly so equipped, with others using them as an option). Peter Sagan has ridden disc brakes to stage wins in this race. One for the trivia buffs (and I don't know the answer BTW...); which was the first TdF stage win on disc brakes?

Not sure what the reason for the difference (between TdF and Giro) is, but it could be down to money rather than anything else; there is (unlike for normal mortals) no weight penalty; the bikes are banging into the UCI weight limit anyway. The roads are mostly smooth, so comfort is moot, and arguably if you need a spare wheel at the wrong time, you are stuffed anyway, so a slightly slower wheel change isn't the end of the world for most riders unless it somehow means you miss the 'autobus'. So a team that is a bit cash strapped could effectively be paid (by shimano or SRAM) to use disc brakes perhaps.

I don't know if the (Mavic) neutral service vehicles carry wheels with brake discs on, or if they are made to fit one manufacturer's standard or not.

BTW I've noticed that there seems to have been more in the way of 'bike changes' in this year's TdF; whether this reflects the nature of the fault or the relative slowness/poorness of wheel changes is unclear to me. It is worth noting that the current rin brake systems have slightly higher MA than previously, and one of the consequences of this is that the running clearance of the brake blocks is a bit less. This must make wheel changes even on rim braked bikes a bit more hit and miss; several times I have seen mechanics making 'on the move' adjustments to rear caliper brakes and I'm not surprised; if I can make the brakes rub rather easily on a modern bike (and I can) then it should be a real problem for more powerful riders.

BTW I don't know if anyone else heard this but they had Pete Kennaugh as a guest (in ITV4 coverage) during an early stage in this year's race. He spoke briefly about disc brakes. I think he said (and I paraphrase) they were OK on a race bike, because the mechanics dealt with any problems, but that they were not his first choice for a training bike, because they were (for him) more difficult to maintain. He may have said PITA , more or less. Not sure he was 'on message' with that one or not....

cheers

[JohnW]

I guess some marketing type people spotted a way to introduce a USP on a road bike. They spun the idea, to make it sound appealing, and it worked. So everyone else started producing disc braked road bikes to keep up. I really hate disc brakes on a road bike. They are totally unnecessary, and increase complexity of a system that doesn’t need it.

I see that as a well balanced view Marcus - with the one caveat that I've never ridden disc brakes.

They have their place of course, and we all make our own choices, but when it's been suggested to me that my next frame should be built to accommodate disc brakes, I ask "why?", and the answers given for a road biker like myself suggest nothing that my callipers can't don't do.

Not all things new are useless of course - I converted to dual pivots having found that they were advantageous to me.

[Alan O]

why?
Telling people they are a must have, telling porkies about the advantages (a bit like the porkies over remaining n the EU) promoting the heck out of them with those well known web sites/income based on how well we can promote products organisations promoting them, getting professional teams/riders to use them (on the back of pushing their new product) so if the pros are using them then they must be good/right, right?
Oh and reducing the line up/availability of non disc bikes/frames.
Because it dumbs things down, there's no skill or ability to concern yourself with ... apparently :roll

Funny how in the wet at high speed in the pro ranks it's not the brakes ability to work that is the problem, it's the tyres grip, poor line, poor decision making that is the deciding factor as to why they crash, that in turn is dictated in part by helmet wearing, it's not about modulation or ultimate braking power.

Discs are a step too far (I've explained previously why) unless you're bothered about rim wear, in which case more fool you because you just spent a shed load of money on a new bike and all your existing wheels are utterly useless for your new mchine so you have to spend even more money on new swap out wheels or simply get a new stable throughout.
Modulation, learn how to brake properly, learn how to anticipate/read the road and stop going too fast, travel at a speed you can stop well within the distance you can see to be clear, stop expecting to have things dumbed down, discs devolves skill/thinking ... it's exactly the same as motorvehicles/motorists.

While I wouldn't say I'm in agreement with you on many of those points, I do appreciate a well-crafted rant, and I salute you for it

[Alan O]

Why do we need syncro mesh on gearboxes which dumbs down driving skills in not having too learn how to double- de-clutch? And later in life, when no one would listen to him anymore, Why the hell ABS brake systems which require no driving ability from incompetents? (Isn't that the anti-disc argument also?)

Why should surgeons have things easy with computer-guided keyhole surgery when they should be honing (literally) their skills with meat cleavers and blood buckets? And supermarkets are destroying our hunter-gatherer skills... etc

[[XAP]Bob]

To be specific,what makes better brakes worse?

There are multiple qualities of a brake:
- Max friction
- Modulation
- Weight
- Pad wear
- Braking surface wear
- Reliability
- Workshop maintainability
- Roadside maintainability


You can easily have a brake which improves on some yet is detrimental for others...

[Cyril Haearn]

A while ago our Sporting Heroes were complaining about disc brakes, a disc could cause serious injury in a crash

[busb]

….As an aside, I've been surprised just how many disc-brakes bikes have been used in the TdF this year on the flatter stages but not by Sky as has been pointed out.

some folk are surprised the other way, i.e. they predicted that 'everyone in the peloton would use discs as soon as they were allowed to'.

cheers

There are logistical reasons rather than just sheer conservativism why professional cyclists are more reluctant than (some of) us mere mortals to embrace hydro discs - wheels changes but it has been commentated upon that there's been more bike changes this year as you point out. I can understand a team preferring rim or discs but not both so I'd expect the outcome to stick with the devil they know. Next year, I'd expect to see more bikes with discs after the dust has settled! Some folk have speculated that mixing both types in the same race would cause crashes. I've not heard disc brakes being blamed so far. A mechanic was spotted using a cordless drill to speed up thru-axle removal/fitting so time will tell.
The NS bike I saw on ITV yesterday didn't have discs (or electronic shifting - I'm sure I'd have noticed if it had had discs) but did have a lever-operated dropper post which makes sense.
I speculate that the use of tubeless tyres will increase, considering the number of punctures this year.

[reohn2]

To be specific,what makes better brakes worse?

There are multiple qualities of a brake:
- Max friction
- Modulation
- Weight
- Pad wear
- Braking surface wear
- Reliability
- Workshop maintainability
- Roadside maintainability


You can easily have a brake which improves on some yet is detrimental for others...

IME the only thing in that list that is a negative for disc brakes is weight,which is marginal other than for weight weenies.The rest BB7 cable operated discs win hands down,with the added plus of better more predictable braking in wet and or mucky condition and,an added bonus of a much cleaner bike after riding in such conditions .