Why have disc brakes become so popular?

[busb]

I checked my pads after a recent annual free service - the front had less than 0.5mm left so I replaced them. The rear was fine. Needless to say, I inspect mine more regularly!

On the subject of emergency braking, I’ve never gone over the bars but have had the back wheel in the air well before any encounter with discs. If anyone is worried about emergency braking, I suggest they don't ride on drop bars, period. The response time from certain hand positions is actually quite alarmingly delayed. At least with straight bars, the levers are always close & therefore quick to operate.

[Jezrant]

I don't know anyone who has used disc brakes for any length of time who hasn't worn pads out frighteningly quickly and/or run out of pads unexpectedly (using a self-adjusting system).

cheers

I haven't worn out pads frighteningly quickly nor run out of pads unexpectedly in the past eight years that I've been using disc brakes.

I think it would be very easy to design brake calipers and brake pads so that there is an inbuilt wear indicator; for example the 'tangs' on top of most pads could be bent inwards so that once the linings are worn, they touch or overlap or something. You would then be able to see at a glance if the pads were worn that way.

I think it would be a good idea too. There was a time when rim wear indicators weren't so common.

Understanding that

a) your brakes (of whatever type) might have limitations and
b) where they might lie

is useful, nay essential information.

cheers

That's my view too. You unfortunately sometimes undermine your very good intentions with the scary language. Hence, threads like these roll on and on. Maybe that's your intention.

Cheers

[Cugel]

I checked my pads after a recent annual free service - the front had less than 0.5mm left so I replaced them. The rear was fine. Needless to say, I inspect mine more regularly!

Some bicycle users can't seem to do their own maintenance. This seems to be bad for the bike user but good for the professional bike maintainers. The inept bicycle owners not only have to fork out cash to pay someone else to do maintenance, they also risk themselves because they are unaware that something may be not working well. When this is the brakes ......

There's a lot to be said for putting yourself in charge of your own fate via knowledge appropriate to the risks you may be taking in, for example, using a bike. But these days people seem to think it's someone else's job to keep them safe and happy. Those who charge for "safe & happy" (or who are given large powers to arrange the happy-safe feelings) seem only too willing to agree to this contract. Many exaggerate the dangers to safe-happiness in order to enhance their cash or power accrual, as the inept & fearful listen with jaws dropped to the long list of terrors awaiting them everywhere!

On the subject of emergency braking, I’ve never gone over the bars but have had the back wheel in the air well before any encounter with discs. If anyone is worried about emergency braking, I suggest they don't ride on drop bars, period. The response time from certain hand positions is actually quite alarmingly delayed. At least with straight bars, the levers are always close & therefore quick to operate.

If one uses drop bars with the usual brake levers, it seems appropriate to learn & adopt the required braking lever application skills. With drop bars one normally rides "on the hoods" (of the brake levers) and develops a strong enough grip to pull the levers as hard as necessary from that position. This can be a rapid response if one habitually rides "on the hoods" with the fingers already loosely wrapped about the levers.

Some with a weak grip they are unable to increase would perhaps be better off with the straight bars - or the hydraulic drop-bar brake levers, since these require far lass grip to apply effectively.

Best of all - don't ride in a mental state unaware of impending dangers that, if realised, will require "emergency braking". Brucey thinks this impossible...... but I think the incident rate can be drastically reduced or even eliminated by learning to ride a bike well in the often risky environments one may cycle through.

In all events, it seems foolish to rely on others (especially drivers of cars et al) to take care of your safe-happiness. They may have agendas of their own!

Cugel

[reohn2]

.......On the subject of emergency braking, I’ve never gone over the bars but have had the back wheel in the air well before any encounter with discs. If anyone is worried about emergency braking, I suggest they don't ride on drop bars, period. The response time from certain hand positions is actually quite alarmingly delayed. At least with straight bars, the levers are always close & therefore quick to operate.

That's a very good point,perhaps drops should be banned for that reason alone

[Brucey]

if I had to ride all the time in an urban environment I would probably have flat bars, simply because they offer the best and quickest access to the brakes. As it is, dropped bars suit most of my riding best. In an urban situation I 'cover the brakes' nearly all the time, in order that I don't have a big delay before I can apply the brakes.

cheers

[Bmblbzzz]

I checked my pads after a recent annual free service - the front had less than 0.5mm left so I replaced them. The rear was fine. Needless to say, I inspect mine more regularly!

Some bicycle users can't seem to do their own maintenance. This seems to be bad for the bike user but good for the professional bike maintainers. The inept bicycle owners not only have to fork out cash to pay someone else to do maintenance, they also risk themselves because they are unaware that something may be not working well. When this is the brakes ......

There's a lot to be said for putting yourself in charge of your own fate via knowledge appropriate to the risks you may be taking in, for example, using a bike. <...>
Cugel

Taking charge of your own fate is good. Being aware of how any machine you're depending on operates is also good. And doing your own maintenance of such machine is a good way of combining the two. But it's not the only way. More importantly, it's not possible for some people. Those who are unable to maintain their own bike due to lack of space, disability of hands etc, or chronic clumsiness (dyspraxia?), or who simply prefer to spend money rather than time and labour, can still enjoy the benefits of cycling. Some of them might be inept at maintenance, which seems a very good reason to leave it to those are skilled and knowledgeable. Some might not be. None of that makes them inept owners.

[Cugel]

I checked my pads after a recent annual free service - the front had less than 0.5mm left so I replaced them. The rear was fine. Needless to say, I inspect mine more regularly!

Some bicycle users can't seem to do their own maintenance. This seems to be bad for the bike user but good for the professional bike maintainers. The inept bicycle owners not only have to fork out cash to pay someone else to do maintenance, they also risk themselves because they are unaware that something may be not working well. When this is the brakes ......

There's a lot to be said for putting yourself in charge of your own fate via knowledge appropriate to the risks you may be taking in, for example, using a bike. <...>
Cugel

Taking charge of your own fate is good. Being aware of how any machine you're depending on operates is also good. And doing your own maintenance of such machine is a good way of combining the two. But it's not the only way. More importantly, it's not possible for some people. Those who are unable to maintain their own bike due to lack of space, disability of hands etc, or chronic clumsiness (dyspraxia?), or who simply prefer to spend money rather than time and labour, can still enjoy the benefits of cycling. Some of them might be inept at maintenance, which seems a very good reason to leave it to those are skilled and knowledgeable. Some might not be. None of that makes them inept owners.

If an owner of a thing requiring maintenance/fixing has enough understanding to (a) know when it needs fixing and (b) the ability to suss-out those who can properly maintain/fix, as well as whether they've actually done so .... fine.

Sadly, many just absolve themselves of even these basic responsibilities for their own stuff and trust to luck. Many are unlucky.

Cugel

[Bmblbzzz]

Some bicycle users can't seem to do their own maintenance. This seems to be bad for the bike user but good for the professional bike maintainers. The inept bicycle owners not only have to fork out cash to pay someone else to do maintenance, they also risk themselves because they are unaware that something may be not working well. When this is the brakes ......

There's a lot to be said for putting yourself in charge of your own fate via knowledge appropriate to the risks you may be taking in, for example, using a bike. <...>
Cugel

Taking charge of your own fate is good. Being aware of how any machine you're depending on operates is also good. And doing your own maintenance of such machine is a good way of combining the two. But it's not the only way. More importantly, it's not possible for some people. Those who are unable to maintain their own bike due to lack of space, disability of hands etc, or chronic clumsiness (dyspraxia?), or who simply prefer to spend money rather than time and labour, can still enjoy the benefits of cycling. Some of them might be inept at maintenance, which seems a very good reason to leave it to those are skilled and knowledgeable. Some might not be. None of that makes them inept owners.

If an owner of a thing requiring maintenance/fixing has enough understanding to (a) know when it needs fixing and (b) the ability to suss-out those who can properly maintain/fix, as well as whether they've actually done so .... fine.

Sadly, many just absolve themselves of even these basic responsibilities for their own stuff and trust to luck. Many are unlucky.

Cugel

So are you now saying it's acceptable for owners/users to get others to do maintenance? Previously you were saying that they should do their own maintenance, saying paying others is "bad for the user" and calling them "inept owners". I find this a snobbish attitude which puts a lot of people off. It's great if use and maintenance can go together, but not everyone finds they can. On my bikes, I do most jobs myself, but if something is beyond me (say installing a new headset; I expect I could probably do this but it's such a rare job, it's not worth buying a special tool, and it's also not worth risking doing it wrong), I'll take it in to a professional. When the central heating boiler breaks down, it's all beyond me. Should I use open fires and heat water in a tub because I can't fix the boiler? Should I stop using this computer because I can't fix it?

Ah, but now you're talking about people knowing when a thing needs fixing, and taking it to someone who can. Great. But again, not all faults are obvious to all people. Brakes in fact are a pretty good example of the way in which gradual deterioration over time can go unnoticed, because a habitual user accustoms themselves to the slow degradation of performance as eg pads wear. This has long been recognised by manufacturers of items such as cars and aircraft, which is why they make recommendations for service of certain components every so many miles/months/flying hours. (And how many commercial pilots maintain the aircraft they fly?) The same can easily be applied to bikes; if you don't understand it too well, take it to the shop every year (or whatever, depending how much/where/etc you ride). Sure, it'll cost. But it's better that not riding. (And most bikes around the world probably get no service whatsoever – look at the transport bikes of India, Africa, the Netherlands or even Cambridge students - yet they carry on functioning.)

[Brucey]

....And most bikes around the world probably get no service whatsoever – look at the transport bikes of India, Africa, the Netherlands or even Cambridge students - yet they carry on functioning.

In India they reinforce wheels on carrier bikes by welding in lengths of re-bar where the spokes used to be. In some of the other places one working gear and no brakes constitutes 'a ridable bicycle' for some folk. About 1/3 of all the bikes that end up LBSs for repair are 'not economic to repair' but increasingly the owners would sooner have their old nail fixed rather than buy a new bike and have it nicked instantly. At least half the bikes that end up in LBSs for repair are actually dangerous and shouldn't really be ridden. Some of the faults are un-****-ing believeable and the damage could have been nipped in the bud for pennies had the owner realised/cared enough to start with.

I saw a bike being ridden in one of our great university cities that left me slack-jawed; this terrible noise preceded the arrival of a student on a bike, and the reason it was so noisy was because the troublesome tyres (which had presumably punctured) had been declared surplus to requirements, and had been removed altogether. They were merrily riding around on the rims....

One of the problems with modern bikes is that the ones that appeal to buyers are usually vaguely 'sporty' ones, and with the 'more is more' mindset folk are apt to buy a bike that is loaded in 'features' and that use technology that has trickled down from MTB racing or road racing. Invariably this technology (be it gears, brakes, suspension or whatever) appears to offer some kind of 'performance benefit' but the actual benefit is small and it comes at a cost; this cost is both financial and ongoing; such equipment is almost invariably maintenance intensive and has consumable parts that are, er, consumed at a high rate.
I am increasingly of the view that very many cyclists would be a lot better off with a bike that is simpler to start with and that isn't laden with 'technology'. Bikes are at heart simple things and simple bikes often work as well or better for simple purposes than complicated ones. Folk seem able to grasp the essential features of rim brakes or hub brakes fairly easily but other brakes are rather more 'opaque' to them. For example, even if you vaguely understand how disc brakes work, it isn't obvious that the pads are (in most models) worn to the point at which they should be replaced when about half the friction material remains, but that is indeed very often the case.

Amazingly folk buy bikes without a realistic expectation of how the thing will be maintained in the future; 'oh it is only a bike how complicated can it be?' they cry, or 'when it goes wrong and I can't fix it I shall take it into the bike shop'. Well bikes are complicated and you could end up with no brakes (or something equally weird/destructive) if you wait until it 'goes wrong'.

cheers

[Cugel]

If an owner of a thing requiring maintenance/fixing has enough understanding to (a) know when it needs fixing and (b) the ability to suss-out those who can properly maintain/fix, as well as whether they've actually done so .... fine.

Sadly, many just absolve themselves of even these basic responsibilities for their own stuff and trust to luck. Many are unlucky.

Cugel

So are you now saying it's acceptable for owners/users to get others to do maintenance? Previously you were saying that they should do their own maintenance, saying paying others is "bad for the user" and calling them "inept owners". I find this a snobbish attitude which puts a lot of people off. It's great if use and maintenance can go together, but not everyone finds they can. On my bikes, I do most jobs myself, but if something is beyond me (say installing a new headset; I expect I could probably do this but it's such a rare job, it's not worth buying a special tool, and it's also not worth risking doing it wrong), I'll take it in to a professional. When the central heating boiler breaks down, it's all beyond me. Should I use open fires and heat water in a tub because I can't fix the boiler? Should I stop using this computer because I can't fix it?

It's a fair point to mention that some things are so complex that it takes a specialist to fix or maintain them. But at the very least one needs to be able to test and judge the competence of the bought-in fixer or maintainer. Perhaps you have fallen foul of the charlatans or cowboys....? Did it not encourage you to find a means to distinguish such predators of your wallet from competent service providers with a good reputation?

Taking your example of installing a headset .... Assuming you prefer the LBS service, do you not firstly make checks about their reputation at fixing and secondly understand and apply tests to make sure they did a good job? Or did you just hop on and hope the thing didn't seize up on a fast downhill; or allow the forks to fall out?

Ah, but now you're talking about people knowing when a thing needs fixing, and taking it to someone who can. Great. But again, not all faults are obvious to all people. Brakes in fact are a pretty good example of the way in which gradual deterioration over time can go unnoticed, because a habitual user accustoms themselves to the slow degradation of performance as eg pads wear. This has long been recognised by manufacturers of items such as cars and aircraft, which is why they make recommendations for service of certain components every so many miles/months/flying hours. (And how many commercial pilots maintain the aircraft they fly?) The same can easily be applied to bikes; if you don't understand it too well, take it to the shop every year (or whatever, depending how much/where/etc you ride). Sure, it'll cost. But it's better that not riding. (And most bikes around the world probably get no service whatsoever – look at the transport bikes of India, Africa, the Netherlands or even Cambridge students - yet they carry on functioning.)

Well, you can give up at judging whether the things you use are fit for purpose, and on whether your paid-for fixers are competent or cowboys, on the grounds that it's all to complicated. Personally I prefer to acquire enough knowledge to stand a good chance of employing only the competent fixers and to be able to judge if they really have done a good fix. I apply this to the boiler maintenance, which is purchased from a company with a high reputation and checked via standing over the fixer whilst interrogating him about what he has found or what he has done ("and did you do this list of things"). Same for everything really, especially computers (although I learnt to fix those myself).

In Blighty we used to have all sorts of inspectors to check the quality of manufacturing and maintaining work but this is apparently "red tape" so now the cowboys are everywhere and junk stuff & services are the norm. Still, "customers" seem happy to be bamboozled, since they can always buy another one and thus be soothed by "shopping therapy".

An alternative is to employ a solicitor to seek "compensation" for poor goods & services although solicitors too are often cowboy incompetents with an inclination to perform very badly indeed for a large fee.

****
When I were a bairn, 178 years ago, most people were rather better at looking after stuff than they are now. After all, they couldn't afford a new one, nor the costs of a fixer. All them blokes fixing their own cars, bikes, washing machines and even the wife's sewing machine! How they wasted their time doing all this when they could have been watching tele or playing golf, eh?

Cugel

[busb]

I checked my pads after a recent annual free service - the front had less than 0.5mm left so I replaced them. The rear was fine. Needless to say, I inspect mine more regularly!

Some bicycle users can't seem to do their own maintenance. This seems to be bad for the bike user but good for the professional bike maintainers. The inept bicycle owners not only have to fork out cash to pay someone else to do maintenance, they also risk themselves because they are unaware that something may be not working well. When this is the brakes ......

There's a lot to be said for putting yourself in charge of your own fate via knowledge appropriate to the risks you may be taking in, for example, using a bike. But these days people seem to think it's someone else's job to keep them safe and happy. Those who charge for "safe & happy" (or who are given large powers to arrange the happy-safe feelings) seem only too willing to agree to this contract. Many exaggerate the dangers to safe-happiness in order to enhance their cash or power accrual, as the inept & fearful listen with jaws dropped to the long list of terrors awaiting them everywhere!

On the subject of emergency braking, I’ve never gone over the bars but have had the back wheel in the air well before any encounter with discs. If anyone is worried about emergency braking, I suggest they don't ride on drop bars, period. The response time from certain hand positions is actually quite alarmingly delayed. At least with straight bars, the levers are always close & therefore quick to operate.

If one uses drop bars with the usual brake levers, it seems appropriate to learn & adopt the required braking lever application skills. With drop bars one normally rides "on the hoods" (of the brake levers) and develops a strong enough grip to pull the levers as hard as necessary from that position. This can be a rapid response if one habitually rides "on the hoods" with the fingers already loosely wrapped about the levers.

Some with a weak grip they are unable to increase would perhaps be better off with the straight bars - or the hydraulic drop-bar brake levers, since these require far lass grip to apply effectively.

Best of all - don't ride in a mental state unaware of impending dangers that, if realised, will require "emergency braking". Brucey thinks this impossible...... but I think the incident rate can be drastically reduced or even eliminated by learning to ride a bike well in the often risky environments one may cycle through.

In all events, it seems foolish to rely on others (especially drivers of cars et al) to take care of your safe-happiness. They may have agendas of their own!

Cugel

Gosh really!? I've only been cycling for 50+ years so what the hell could I possibly know about bike maintenance, road skills or my own mental state?

[Peter W]

Ah yes, that age old plea for simplicity in all things - we don't need bikes laden with technology!

I was reminded of a conversation with an elderly work colleague ( more a lecture by him) in the early 1960's. He drove a Ford Consul car and was railing at the fact that car manufacturers were forever updating their designs and adding totally unnecessary fittings year on year. (Electric windows had really aggravated him - what the blazes was wrong with turning a window winder - far less to go wrong.)

His thrust was that cars, by the early 60's, had reached such a standard of refinement and performance that the makers should continue making the same model to save all the money they wasted on chasing unnecessary improvements, and steadily lower the cost with very long production runs.

Oh, how time and progress makes a mockery of such thinking I thought to myself just this afternoon, as I lowered my tired bones after an energetic wind surfing session into my year old 'super' mini, with its combination of performance, refinement, and electronic wizardry, the like of which would have astounded him, had he glimpsed into a crystal ball!

Well, tomorrow I shall mount my disc braked carbon fibre sprung front end 11 speed (not asked for, but perfectly usable) and consider, as I pound along, what might be in 50 years time? (Not that many of us will ever know.)

[busb]

if I had to ride all the time in an urban environment I would probably have flat bars, simply because they offer the best and quickest access to the brakes. As it is, dropped bars suit most of my riding best. In an urban situation I 'cover the brakes' nearly all the time, in order that I don't have a big delay before I can apply the brakes.

cheers

Most of the time when riding drop bars, my hands are clasped around the hoods, especially when approaching potential hazzards like junctions, side roads blind corners, crossings etc; on the tops in light traffic & occasionally on the drops. My Defy will be hung up by the end of autumn so will be returning to my hybrid until the spring.
GCN did a comparison between similarly framed drop bars with straights (Orbea Vectors) on YouTube - the drop bar version was generally faster but less manoeuvrable or stable . Unfornately, they didn't test braking. They did suggest drops were better for longer rides due to having 3 potential hand positions - I've never been totally convinced by this argument. My hybrid's bars have been cut down so my elbows don't stick out that far. It's certainly been interesting returning to drops after a 20yr gap - braking is essentially similar but wouldn't want to return to down tube shifting.

[Brucey]

Peter, Fiat offered the Russians a licence to build the Fiat 124 in about 1966 and that car became the Lada. They carried on making it for about forty years, during which time they made it stronger, uglier, heavier, and much less pleasant to drive than the original Fiat. Your colleague would have been impressed with that no doubt and he had a point but there is such a thing as progress; cars of the 1960s would go 20K between decokes, 3k on an oil change and many had gearboxes with a design life of 25000 miles. They would also try and kill you if you hit anything, had terrible brakes and gawd knows what else besides.
Modern cars go 12k miles between services and have a design life of about 200k miles in most cases. They are (of course) needlessly complicated and heavy (the gadgets add about 200kg to an average car these days) but the market wants what the market wants. Performance in modern cars is pretty good but if you put modern brakes, engine, suspension parts in an older lighter shell without the gadgets then you get something that really goes and stops well.

Comparing with bicycles the service intervals are much shorter on most modern bicycles and the performance gains are slight, because the bike constitutes only a small fraction of the all-up weight and/or aero drag. if you are going racing this matters of course but for normal folk the benefits are in many cases likely to be outweighed by the disadvantages, if you do that many miles.

Mind you 'twas ever thus; in 1980-something I found I couldn't make a chain and block last more than a couple of months on my training bike which was a PITA . I of course 'bought technology' on my race bike, and got marginal gains as a result, but I then built a much more basic machine for training on, using a hub gear etc. I soon found that I wasn't noticeably slower on the training bike unless I was actually racing, and for a few years I stuck about 7-8000 miles a year on the training bike. I've used it on and off since and the total mileage is probably at least 60000 miles now (might be nearer 80000 in fact). The cost saving in fewer/cheaper transmission parts has largely funded the purchase of every race bike I have had since then.

I've spent my life working with new technologies and some are genuine improvements; unequivocally better. In bikes it is usually a lot less clear that this is ever the case; you can be seduced by the 'benefits' and only after a while do the downsides become apparent. In the meantime you can wear rose-tinted spectacles, blinkers, whatever, and see your cup as half-full or half-empty... all a matter of perspective I suppose.

cheers

[Brucey]

. They did suggest drops were better for longer rides due to having 3 potential hand positions -.

i'd agree with that, and add that the number of positions is way more than three. I'd also add that if you have interrupter levers on the top of the drops, riding on the tops isn't much different from riding narrow flats.

BTW it isn't just the handlebar width that alters the speed of the bike; it is a lot to do with body position; drops can enable you to 'get doon' and get aero a bit better, without being wildly uncomfortable.

An object lesson is to look at de Vlaemink on a bike in his heyday.







he looks (relatively) comfortable for the simple reason that he was; 300km days were not unusual for him. More than one way of using the dropped bars, as you can see. The final photo shows a position that is only comfortable if you are pushing pretty hard on the pedals. I can't get anywhere near those positions now but BITD I could. I don't think I could have done so using flat bars of any kind.

cheers