A Misguided Badge of Honour?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
NetworkMan
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Re: A Misguided Badge of Honour?

Postby NetworkMan » 6 Sep 2018, 11:43am

Vorpal wrote:
NetworkMan wrote:
pwa wrote:I like the "polluter pays" principle. That way you get to weigh up whether that trip by car to Reeth is really worth it. If it is, great, do it. If not, maybe it was a frivolous use of a car.

Yes, carbon rationing is the fairest way to do that but it won't happen.

Carbon rationing is fair, for some things. We also need to prevent the release of other greenhouse gases, such as methane and nitrous oxide.

Sure we do but lets start on the relatively easy part first.
I like your quote from Nelson Mandela - see the bit upthread about the Green Party, and the Lib Dems too until they got caught out be getting sort of elected!

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horizon
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Re: A Misguided Badge of Honour?

Postby horizon » 6 Sep 2018, 11:45am

NetworkMan wrote:
I want to see some good Tory capitalist pricing at work!

Trouble is that at a sufficient level to change the behaviour of the rich, you'll punish the poor, possibly making them ill or even dead. Carbon rationing does it in a fairer way


You can quite easily recompense the poor with higher child benefits or something similar - the important thing is to change behaviour (and that includes allowing the poor to make more intelligent choices).
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Re: A Misguided Badge of Honour?

Postby Vorpal » 6 Sep 2018, 12:26pm

horizon wrote:
NetworkMan wrote:
I want to see some good Tory capitalist pricing at work!

Trouble is that at a sufficient level to change the behaviour of the rich, you'll punish the poor, possibly making them ill or even dead. Carbon rationing does it in a fairer way


You can quite easily recompense the poor with higher child benefits or something similar - the important thing is to change behaviour (and that includes allowing the poor to make more intelligent choices).

Rather than compensating the poor for a penalty, we need to enable everyone to make good transport choices. That means improving public transport and making it economical, ensuring safe and easy active travel, and enabling people to live near work and school, or use alternatives such as remote working.

As for the OP, while it is fair enough to disagree about the use of cars, I don't think that it is reasonable to use the word 'misguided' in reference to people who choose to do what they can to reduce their consumption of fossil fuels.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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amediasatex
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Re: A Misguided Badge of Honour?

Postby amediasatex » 6 Sep 2018, 1:01pm

Often when I get involved in discussions on this topic (and it has happened in this thread) people seem to argue against a point I haven't made...namely that I think you shouldn't use a car.

That is not what I, or others, are saying. A car is often exactly the right tool for the job, but I would like people to pay more attention to whether they should use a car for a particular journey.

Taking your bike to a nice place for day ride that's inaccessible easily by public transport? crack on, and have a great day.

Driving 0.8 miles to collect the morning paper on a sunny day? shame on you.

Driving to work 2 miles away (as a single occupant) every day? probably time to rethink if the cost, time, damage to others health etc is really worth it.

I am not anti-car at all, I own one, I even use it from time to time, and that's OK.
The last 3 audaxes I did I travelled to in 3 different ways:

First I drove to (20miles away) as it was more convenient and I took a friend with me who didn't want to ride to the start.
Second I got the train to (75 miles away) as it was more convenient and relaxing (last year I drove there).
Third I rode to the start (17miles away) as it was nearby and seemed silly not to.

The important bit is making the decision, many people simply jump in the car because that's what they're used to, and then gradually they then stop even considering other options even when they are there.

As for the whole individual action being pointless argument, well that is a pointless argument. If you can't see how individual action scaled over a population leads to change then there's no hope. The only way you make big changes is by persuading individuals to make those changes. How you persuade is up for debate, but every change at a population level requires individual action.
Last edited by amediasatex on 6 Sep 2018, 1:56pm, edited 3 times in total.

Peter W
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Re: A Misguided Badge of Honour?

Postby Peter W » 6 Sep 2018, 1:24pm

mjr. Read meics reply. He has sufficient insight to see the obvious, and state it. I won't obey your continued and unwelcome insistence that I should use the train.

Cugel. I'm retired, having spent my working life in a responsible position, so feel I have earned the right to enjoy in my way, the remainder of my life. (81 in two months time.) I have no inclination to wear a hair shirt just to virtue signal, when for reasons I've already explained (out of control population growth, ever increasing demand for power supplies to meet the future and maintain the world economic system, the total collapse of which would be a disaster) implies that individual actions will not be an effective working fix, so I won't now change my life style. Too little, too late!

brypoeth. Your contribution is silly. The Wensleydale railway is a mainly steam Heritage line starting nowhere significant, and going nowhere of any practical use to anyone. Certainly no good for my needs.

As another parting shot, (I know, but I'm angry), consider a normal winter mountain biking day from Reeth. (35 miles from where I live.) Arrive back at Reeth from a couple of hours ride up on the freezing snowy hill tops, a bit battered by the weather and covered in filth. Load bike on rack. Strip off soaking bike gear. Change into clean dry ordinary clothes. Shut all doors and windows and start engine to get heater on full blast. (Gasp shock horror - destroying the planet.) Tuck into sandwiches and giant flask of hot tea and relax in that wonderful induced heatglow which is the aftermath of vigourous out door exercise, while pollishing off the day's crossword puzzle in the paper, obblivious to the cold and wind outside. To me, such is a clear highlight to the day, and much to be appreciated. Stuff the trains! (Can't compete!)

rmurphy195
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Re: A Misguided Badge of Honour?

Postby rmurphy195 » 6 Sep 2018, 1:44pm

Toally agree with the OP.

Living in South Birmingham, its a long time since I got fed up of the same old same old on my rides, where I start out and return in traffic with all its associated hassles (about to become worse locally given the road markings on the new island at Longbridge).

Go by train?

Around Lichfield, or out and around Coventry or its approaches for example is ok - I can (and do) pop on the local trains at my local station and, with my pensioner pass, the world (or at least the West Midlands) is my oyster. As long as I don't want to travel in the rush hour that is.

But for the most part it really is not viable.

To go to Bristol I have to go to Birmingham town centre, then take an expensive train ride. Then have to do it all again to come back. Would take ages compared to popping the bike in the car, about 75-90 mins down the m'way to the Park and Ride, and off we go. And if I do have problems, I'm under no pressure from train timetables.

Getting up to the Peak District, Forest of Dean and other favoured locations is likewise just a pain in the proverbial.

My answer to the "What's wrong with trains" question is the same as the "Why don't you use the cycle routes" question - they don't go where I want to! Simple as that.
Scott Purgatory MTB, Brompton, Condor Heritage, creaky joints and grey hair
""You know you're getting old when it's easier to ride a bike than to get on and off it" - quote from observant jogger !

rmurphy195
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Re: A Misguided Badge of Honour?

Postby rmurphy195 » 6 Sep 2018, 1:48pm

Peter W wrote:mjr. Read meics reply. He has sufficient insight to see the obvious, and state it. I won't obey your continued and unwelcome insistence that I should use the train.

Cugel. I'm retired, having spent my working life in a responsible position, so feel I have earned the right to enjoy in my way, the remainder of my life. (81 in two months time.) I have no inclination to wear a hair shirt just to virtue signal, when for reasons I've already explained (out of control population growth, ever increasing demand for power supplies to meet the future and maintain the world economic system, the total collapse of which would be a disaster) implies that individual actions will not be an effective working fix, so I won't now change my life style. Too little, too late!

brypoeth. Your contribution is silly. The Wensleydale railway is a mainly steam Heritage line starting nowhere significant, and going nowhere of any practical use to anyone. Certainly no good for my needs.

As another parting shot, (I know, but I'm angry), consider a normal winter mountain biking day from Reeth. (35 miles from where I live.) Arrive back at Reeth from a couple of hours ride up on the freezing snowy hill tops, a bit battered by the weather and covered in filth. Load bike on rack. Strip off soaking bike gear. Change into clean dry ordinary clothes. Shut all doors and windows and start engine to get heater on full blast. (Gasp shock horror - destroying the planet.) Tuck into sandwiches and giant flask of hot tea and relax in that wonderful induced heatglow which is the aftermath of vigourous out door exercise, while pollishing off the day's crossword puzzle in the paper, obblivious to the cold and wind outside. To me, such is a clear highlight to the day, and much to be appreciated. Stuff the trains! (Can't compete!)


Sorry Peter, you have got it completely wrong.

Your car is not good enough, you need a campervan or similar with built-in shower and loo. Get cleaned up while dinner is heating up in the oven and kettle is on, then a nice meal at the table with your freshly-made coffee to hand , then feet up to do your crosswords/sudoku etc.!

Well, we can all dream ...
Scott Purgatory MTB, Brompton, Condor Heritage, creaky joints and grey hair
""You know you're getting old when it's easier to ride a bike than to get on and off it" - quote from observant jogger !

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horizon
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Re: A Misguided Badge of Honour?

Postby horizon » 6 Sep 2018, 2:15pm

Peter W wrote:I'm retired, having spent my working life in a responsible position, so feel I have earned the right to enjoy in my way, the remainder of my life. (81 in two months time.) I have no inclination to wear a hair shirt just to virtue signal,


Peter W: no-one (well, nearly no-one) is really asking you to wear a hair shirt! We only ask that you don't knock the tree-huggers! It really is OK - it won't destroy the planet if you drive. Enjoy and appreciate it (great that you are still cycling!).

And that's from a very anti-car forum member! :)
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Re: A Misguided Badge of Honour?

Postby PH » 6 Sep 2018, 2:29pm

rmurphy195 wrote:My answer to the "What's wrong with trains" question is the same as the "Why don't you use the cycle routes" question - they don't go where I want to! Simple as that.

It's different, because to continue your analogy the OP criticises those using cycle paths rather than protesting that they shouldn't have to. I use a cycle path most days, it's wide, smooth tarmac that takes a more direct route into town than the road, why wouldn't I?
Same with the train, it's cheaper and more convenient for me to do so than own a car. The OP makes several claims and accusations that simply are not true and it's easily demonstrated that they aren't.

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Re: A Misguided Badge of Honour?

Postby JakobW » 6 Sep 2018, 2:29pm

Peter W, if you're that angry and just want to be affirmed, maybe starting this thread wasn't that great an idea? I hold a driver's license, and occasionally rent a car; sometimes I even wish I owned one, because it would be convenient. On the other hand, car *culture* is a Moloch, to which we sacrifice thousands of lives a year, plus multiples of that through pollution, never mind the cost to the planet. And that ignores the effects on communities that have become or been made car-dependent. This isn't an immutable law of nature; if you look across the North Sea you can see an alternative, not where cars are banned, but where they are used as tools when appropriate to the benefit of all. If arguing for this as a model to be followed makes me some kind of 'virtue-signalling'* idealist, so be it.

*I'd personally avoid this phrase, as it adds little to the discussion, and is reliably used by the kinds of people to whom virtue seems to be an abstract concept at best (cf. 'political correctness).
Last edited by JakobW on 6 Sep 2018, 2:44pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Si
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Re: A Misguided Badge of Honour?

Postby Si » 6 Sep 2018, 2:42pm

A Misguided Badge of Honour?


Simple answer: NO.

We should all aspire to create less motor traffic on the roads: less pollution, less congestion, less danger or unpleasantness to other users, a more encouraging environment to those who would like to cycle but don't "because of all the traffic". We may not all be able to achieve total carfreeness due to the personal circumstances of our lives but we should applaud both those who do, and those who do everything they reasonably can to reduce their use of unsustainable transport.

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Re: A Misguided Badge of Honour?

Postby brynpoeth » 6 Sep 2018, 2:57pm

This matter was dealt with a while ago, "the tragedy of drive-cycling"

I could drive to interesting places to cycle but I do not. Cycling from home is interesting enough, I do not have many different routes but I love the landscape, colours and seasons keep changing

When I retire I plan to live on the edge of a small town with a train station and do without a vehicle completely
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Cugel
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Re: A Misguided Badge of Honour?

Postby Cugel » 6 Sep 2018, 3:03pm

Peter W wrote:........

Cugel. I'm retired, having spent my working life in a responsible position, so feel I have earned the right to enjoy in my way, the remainder of my life. (81 in two months time.) I have no inclination to wear a hair shirt just to virtue signal, when for reasons I've already explained (out of control population growth, ever increasing demand for power supplies to meet the future and maintain the world economic system, the total collapse of which would be a disaster) implies that individual actions will not be an effective working fix, so I won't now change my life style. Too little, too late!

.......



No one has earned the right to trash the planet. We just do it 'cause we're the flawed self-centred little skinbags known as humans. In fact, the only rights are legal rights - and even these are made-up-stuff albeit the means to justify to ourselves, then do, what we want to do, no matter the costs elsewhere. Forget your "human rights" - no one else will recognise them, especially the wolves who may soon be calling at all our doors.

As to the hair shirt - they are warm and nice! (Well, the merino ones are). The virtue signalling (a queer phrase invented by right-wing barmpots - did you realise) ..... well, somehow it seems better to discuss duties as something of a counterbalance to rights, since each generates the other and cannot exist alone.

But I do understand your need to fiddle whilst Rome burns. We're all doing it, one way or another. Some play a merry jig with a wild flourish of the elbow whilst others play a more mournful style, as they watch the human world replace civilisation with a style of existence (for our grandchildren at least) that may be "nasty, brutish and short". Still, as long as you're happy baby booming about, eh? :-)

Cugel, also a guilty boomer boy but perhaps feeling more shame than thee.

brynpoeth
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Re: A Misguided Badge of Honour?

Postby brynpoeth » 6 Sep 2018, 3:07pm

Going cycling midday or on a Sunday it is sickening to see how much motor traffic there is

Tragedy of the commons indeed
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Peter W
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Re: A Misguided Badge of Honour?

Postby Peter W » 6 Sep 2018, 4:01pm

Sorry, but I've 'had it' with this forum. I'm now accused of trashing the planet SOLELY because, in line with billions of others world wide, I selfishly own and actually drive a car! (By the way, where do trains, buses, ships and aircraft get their power from? Magic wands?)

It shows the hysterical over reaction by many on here, with their hatred of personal transport (cars), and an obsessive view of how the world should be according to them, instead of the reality of how it is. I'm not the one who is dreaming. All reasonable and sane people I discuss life with are well aware of the possible future catastrophic results of out of control population growth chasing the finite resources of our planet, yet most on here seem to think a simplistic solution of all just showing a little restraint will solve it all. (Cars, naturally, being the bogey man.) Of course it won't. Demand is increasing ever faster!

But dream on. Over and out.