dont ask a copper

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
reohn2
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Re: dont ask a copper ( better url)

Postby reohn2 » 6 Oct 2018, 11:18pm

Graham wrote:....... - Police staffing costs will only ever escalate. The population only vote for politicians who promise NOT to take more money out of their pocket.

And there we have it.

Quite!
Most politrickians promise less tax and jam tomorrow,people vote them in then complain when services go down the tubes.....
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Lance Dopestrong
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Re: dont ask a copper ( better url)

Postby Lance Dopestrong » 7 Oct 2018, 7:43am

pete75 wrote:Some in this thread are highlighting being a police officer as a dangerous occupation. An officer is far less likely to suffer death or serious injury at work than a farmworker, builder, fisherman,scaffolder, electrician, plumber, miner, quarryman, manufacturing worker and a fair number of other occupations.
The pay isn't so bad either :-
https://www.policeoracle.com/pay_and_co ... cales.html

"The 2017 Police Remuneration Review Body (PRRB) report found that in 2015/16 police pay was six per cent above professional occupations and 41 per cent higher than wages in the wider economy.

More than half of police constables are currently at the top of their pay bracket. Median total earnings for constables and sergeants are £40,000.

Police officers are entitled to membership of a defined benefit pension scheme. Members benefit from employer contributions of 21.3 per cent of their pay towards their pensions on top of their own contribution. All contributing members are able to take their pension by age 60, with the majority able to take a pension sooner.

Officers receive a minimum of 22 days of annual leave, rising with service to 30 days, plus bank holidays as well as flexible working schedules and career breaks."

Without being promoted salaries rise to almost £40,000 pa automatically. Someone of reasonable competence in any job will get promoted and with only a couple of promotions an officer will be on a salary of over £50,000 pa. Salaries can exceed £200,000 per annum. Overtime above normal shift hours is paid at time and a third and bank holiday working attracts double time.


No one, certainly not me, would ever deny that quarrymen, racing drivers, or farmers do dangerous jobs. However, the OP isn't insulting quarrymen, racing drivers or even farmers - he is having a pop at police officers, and that it the issue under discussion.

And police officers get paid. I'm not sure what the surprise is there. Do you think they'd do it for free? Would you work for free? I wouldn't. In my final year in the Feds my annual salary was less than half that which I'd earned BG'ing. Indeed, the frills alone (5 star hotels, use of luxury cars in my own time, a Rolex watch given me as a gift) in a year spent doing that were probably worth more than I earned in my final year of coppering. No one joins the police to get rich. Except for those that come directly from the military, most people take a pay cut to join the police.

Work in Lidl for £26k and a 38 hour week, or become a copper at as little as £19k and endure shift work, abuse and insults. Which would you do? Surprisingly, few are taking the option now and a crisis is forming in police recruitment. On a recent intake of direct-entry detectives into the Met, every single officer, all 46 of them, failed the fitness test. That's the calible of applicant the pay and conditions is now attracting.

And yes, coppers get a pension. Do you not have one? Do you pay 15% of your gross salary into you pension like I had to? When you're paying 15% it's hardly a freebie. A copper doesn't pay it, they don't get it - it's not free, it's not automatic, and the salary is such that many coppers forego the pension and keep the 15% for themselves just to get by. Please, just in the interests of balance tell us how many % of your salary do you pay?

But then as a private individual you can't be ordered to stay on duty.

You can't be ordered back on duty on a rest day with zero notice.

You do not have to get permission to live wherever you want. Not nice agreeing a sale on a house and finding your chief constable won't give you permission to live there. Never happened to me, but it does happen.

You do not have to declare certain people who you might associate with - not just criminals either, if I were simply hanging out with someone as harmless as a solicitor I'd have had to declare it.

You can partake in political activity.

You do not have to seek permission to join a political party.

If you strike, you will not be arrested and imprisoned for simply witholding your labour.

You can do absolutely anything (that's legal) you like with your free time without having to answer to anyone.

You get fingered for a minor motoring offence, you get an FPN - a copper gets an FPN and disciplinary action at work too, likely involving a deduction from their wages as a disiplinary measure. A forced donation of several hundred quid is fairly typical. Not nice for a new copper without a degree on £19k.

If you want to do unpaid charity work you're free to do so - a copper has to declare it and seek permission.

If a dustman comes across an unemptied bin in their own time they won't be expected to rush to empty it - a copper will be expected to become involved if they stumble into an incident, depsite not having any PPE with them.

And the list goes on and on and on. The restrictions on a coppers private life are huge, and in any other walk of life would in some case be considered quite significant infringements on ECHR rights. So next time you're trotting out a list of the upsides, please also list the massive list of downsides. Keep it balanced, don't cherry pick your facts.
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pete75
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Re: dont ask a copper ( better url)

Postby pete75 » 7 Oct 2018, 10:37am

Lance Dopestrong wrote:
pete75 wrote:Some in this thread are highlighting being a police officer as a dangerous occupation. An officer is far less likely to suffer death or serious injury at work than a farmworker, builder, fisherman,scaffolder, electrician, plumber, miner, quarryman, manufacturing worker and a fair number of other occupations.
The pay isn't so bad either :-
https://www.policeoracle.com/pay_and_co ... cales.html

"The 2017 Police Remuneration Review Body (PRRB) report found that in 2015/16 police pay was six per cent above professional occupations and 41 per cent higher than wages in the wider economy.

More than half of police constables are currently at the top of their pay bracket. Median total earnings for constables and sergeants are £40,000.

Police officers are entitled to membership of a defined benefit pension scheme. Members benefit from employer contributions of 21.3 per cent of their pay towards their pensions on top of their own contribution. All contributing members are able to take their pension by age 60, with the majority able to take a pension sooner.

Officers receive a minimum of 22 days of annual leave, rising with service to 30 days, plus bank holidays as well as flexible working schedules and career breaks."

Without being promoted salaries rise to almost £40,000 pa automatically. Someone of reasonable competence in any job will get promoted and with only a couple of promotions an officer will be on a salary of over £50,000 pa. Salaries can exceed £200,000 per annum. Overtime above normal shift hours is paid at time and a third and bank holiday working attracts double time.


No one, certainly not me, would ever deny that quarrymen, racing drivers, or farmers do dangerous jobs. However, the OP isn't insulting quarrymen, racing drivers or even farmers - he is having a pop at police officers, and that it the issue under discussion.

And police officers get paid. I'm not sure what the surprise is there. Do you think they'd do it for free? Would you work for free? I wouldn't. In my final year in the Feds my annual salary was less than half that which I'd earned BG'ing. Indeed, the frills alone (5 star hotels, use of luxury cars in my own time, a Rolex watch given me as a gift) in a year spent doing that were probably worth more than I earned in my final year of coppering. No one joins the police to get rich. Except for those that come directly from the military, most people take a pay cut to join the police.

Work in Lidl for £26k and a 38 hour week, or become a copper at as little as £19k and endure shift work, abuse and insults. Which would you do? Surprisingly, few are taking the option now and a crisis is forming in police recruitment. On a recent intake of direct-entry detectives into the Met, every single officer, all 46 of them, failed the fitness test. That's the calible of applicant the pay and conditions is now attracting.

And yes, coppers get a pension. Do you not have one? Do you pay 15% of your gross salary into you pension like I had to? When you're paying 15% it's hardly a freebie. A copper doesn't pay it, they don't get it - it's not free, it's not automatic, and the salary is such that many coppers forego the pension and keep the 15% for themselves just to get by. Please, just in the interests of balance tell us how many % of your salary do you pay?

But then as a private individual you can't be ordered to stay on duty.

You can't be ordered back on duty on a rest day with zero notice.

You do not have to get permission to live wherever you want. Not nice agreeing a sale on a house and finding your chief constable won't give you permission to live there. Never happened to me, but it does happen.

You do not have to declare certain people who you might associate with - not just criminals either, if I were simply hanging out with someone as harmless as a solicitor I'd have had to declare it.

You can partake in political activity.

You do not have to seek permission to join a political party.

If you strike, you will not be arrested and imprisoned for simply witholding your labour.

You can do absolutely anything (that's legal) you like with your free time without having to answer to anyone.

You get fingered for a minor motoring offence, you get an FPN - a copper gets an FPN and disciplinary action at work too, likely involving a deduction from their wages as a disiplinary measure. A forced donation of several hundred quid is fairly typical. Not nice for a new copper without a degree on £19k.

If you want to do unpaid charity work you're free to do so - a copper has to declare it and seek permission.

If a dustman comes across an unemptied bin in their own time they won't be expected to rush to empty it - a copper will be expected to become involved if they stumble into an incident, depsite not having any PPE with them.

And the list goes on and on and on. The restrictions on a coppers private life are huge, and in any other walk of life would in some case be considered quite significant infringements on ECHR rights. So next time you're trotting out a list of the upsides, please also list the massive list of downsides. Keep it balanced, don't cherry pick your facts.


There's much in this thread about teh supposed dangers of being a police officer so there's nothing untoward in pointing out that many other occupations are more dangerous.

You seem very bitter about the job you chose. Didn't you know all that before you applied - perhaps some basic research might have helped in that case. If you did know about it all and joined in spite of it then you obviously accepted those conditions so don't moan about them.

The FPN thing you mention is fine. They're given when someone breaks the law usually in a motor vehicle. If someone is paid to uphold teh law then they shouldn't be breaking it should they? I guess cameras etc must have led to officers suffering the consequences of speeding. In the old days when it was all speed traps and patrol cars manned by fellow officers they'd never get "done" would they?

BTW Forces salaries aren't as low as you seem to imply - a young relative who has been in the army for just 4 years is on over £40,000 pa.

landsurfer
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Re: dont ask a copper ( better url)

Postby landsurfer » 7 Oct 2018, 10:57am

pete75 wrote:BTW Forces salaries aren't as low as you seem to imply - a young relative who has been in the army for just 4 years is on over £40,000 pa.


Commissioned Officer then ? Not an Infantry Man. .....
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pete75
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Re: dont ask a copper ( better url)

Postby pete75 » 7 Oct 2018, 11:13am

landsurfer wrote:
pete75 wrote:BTW Forces salaries aren't as low as you seem to imply - a young relative who has been in the army for just 4 years is on over £40,000 pa.


Commissioned Officer then ? Not an Infantry Man. .....


He's in an infantry regiment.

reohn2
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Re: dont ask a copper ( better url)

Postby reohn2 » 7 Oct 2018, 11:16am

pete75 wrote:.......You seem very bitter about the job you chose. Didn't you know all that before you applied - perhaps some basic research might have helped in that case. If you did know about it all and joined in spite of it then you obviously accepted those conditions so don't moan about them........

I don't think he is moaning about the job just letting people know what it entails and that people don't go into the police for the pay and pension.
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pete75
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Re: dont ask a copper ( better url)

Postby pete75 » 7 Oct 2018, 11:29am

reohn2 wrote:
pete75 wrote:.......You seem very bitter about the job you chose. Didn't you know all that before you applied - perhaps some basic research might have helped in that case. If you did know about it all and joined in spite of it then you obviously accepted those conditions so don't moan about them........

I don't think he is moaning about the job just letting people know what it entails and that people don't go into the police for the pay and pension.


Dunno - sounds like a moan to me.

I think people do. A school friend joined at 18 and said it was because he'd be able to retire before he was 50 on a good pension. He rose about half way up the ranks to chief inspector and hasn't worked since he left at 48 so he made a good choice for him. It's different for people who really enjoy their jobs - they often don't want to retire at all. Graham said he had some colleagues like that who really hated being forced to retire.

simonhill
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Re: dont ask a copper ( better url)

Postby simonhill » 7 Oct 2018, 11:36am

To return to the matter in hand, is there nothing that local cycling groups could do in circumstances like this.

From the article, it seems the address is known, the place of advertising is known, perpertrator is known, so couldn't something be done that doesn't involve vigilantism?

Even if the police aren't interested, maybe the local MP would be. If not, how about the council.

The whole thing seems very defeatist.

That nice Mr Duterte might be able to help.

mercalia
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Re: dont ask a copper ( better url)

Postby mercalia » 7 Oct 2018, 12:00pm

simonhill wrote:To return to the matter in hand, is there nothing that local cycling groups could do in circumstances like this.

From the article, it seems the address is known, the place of advertising is known, perpertrator is known, so couldn't something be done that doesn't involve vigilantism?

Even if the police aren't interested, maybe the local MP would be. If not, how about the council.

The whole thing seems very defeatist.

That nice Mr Duterte might be able to help.


who is he?
what the lady did was a form of vigilantism though not of the Death Wish variety with Charles Bronson

Airsporter1st
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Re: dont ask a copper ( better url)

Postby Airsporter1st » 7 Oct 2018, 12:07pm

simonhill wrote:To return to the matter in hand, is there nothing that local cycling groups could do in circumstances like this.

From the article, it seems the address is known, the place of advertising is known, perpertrator is known, so couldn't something be done that doesn't involve vigilantism?

Even if the police aren't interested, maybe the local MP would be. If not, how about the council.

The whole thing seems very defeatist.

That nice Mr Duterte might be able to help.


The fact is that people like the fence described, know full well that the chances of any official action being taken aganst them is practically zero, which is why they are so brazen in their activities. If they thought there was a good chance of a visit by Paul Kersey, they might just change their ways.

simonhill
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Re: dont ask a copper ( better url)

Postby simonhill » 7 Oct 2018, 12:17pm

Rodrigo Duterte, President of the Philippines. 3,500 supposed drug dealers dead and still counting.

I am joking.

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cyclemad
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Re: dont ask a copper ( better url)

Postby cyclemad » 7 Oct 2018, 12:44pm

reohn2 wrote:
pete75 wrote:.......You seem very bitter about the job you chose. Didn't you know all that before you applied - perhaps some basic research might have helped in that case. If you did know about it all and joined in spite of it then you obviously accepted those conditions so don't moan about them........

I don't think he is moaning about the job just letting people know what it entails and that people don't go into the police for the pay and pension.



I agree with this Poster......


Perhaps if people actually ask a cop what the job is like rather than formulating a response based on hearsay , you tube , social medial and Police Interceptors etc they would gain a true insight into the life and times of your local Cop.

The inaction / lack of interest ( as some have called it ) in investigation ;-

This may be determinate on a number of factors . I am not aware of the specifics of the original post but examples may be;-

Is there cctv
Is there a description of the offender
Can the date/time of the occurrence be identified
Are there any witnesses
Can the item ( the cycle ) be positively identified.
Is there any forensic evidence - finger prints / DNA etc

Is there a likelihood of a successful prosecution ( CPS guidelines )

Also to consider;-

What Police resources are available.
Is the investigation person a Police Officer or PCSO ( minor crimes in some force areas are dealt wit by PCSO )
Has the complainant provided a statement
Has the occurrence been overseen by the officers supervisor

What are the force and local priorities


Until the above have been considered it would be unfair to state the the police are not interested.

Hope this helps .

Postboxer
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Re: dont ask a copper ( better url)

Postby Postboxer » 7 Oct 2018, 1:09pm

Maybe go round and check out all the other bikes in his possession?

simonhill
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Re: dont ask a copper ( better url)

Postby simonhill » 7 Oct 2018, 1:15pm

Cyclemad (2 posts up) - did you read the article? Many of your questions would have been answered.

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cyclemad
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Re: dont ask a copper ( better url)

Postby cyclemad » 7 Oct 2018, 1:29pm

simonhill......not all the questions..

As I said until the full facts of the alleged theft are known I would hold back on making comments..

The press have the ability of over reporting in some cases....They tend to flower up information