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Re: Advice on crossing crossroads

Posted: 11 Oct 2018, 12:29pm
by wjhall
foxyrider wrote:Wot they have said! Look, signal, manoeuvre - just the same as in a car
.... ...


Best advice so far. A bicycle is a vehicle, so start reading with the DfT manual "Driving" and of course the Highway Code, motor traffic bits.

I opened Franklin in a public library once, it fell open at a page stating that learning to sprint is useful for cyclists. I shut it again, not my idea of safe cycling at all.

WJH

Re: Advice on crossing crossroads

Posted: 11 Oct 2018, 12:53pm
by mjr
wjhall wrote:I opened Franklin in a public library once, it fell open at a page stating that learning to sprint is useful for cyclists. I shut it again, not my idea of safe cycling at all.

Yeah, you do have to beware the bits where his dubious political rants get mixed up with the sensible coping strategies. It's still better than trying to obey the motor traffic bits of the highway code: wearing glasses is usually a good idea for cyclists, but HC discourages it for drivers. Can you even get seatbelts for a safety bicycle? And obviously, using motorways is a no-no.

Re: Advice on crossing crossroads

Posted: 11 Oct 2018, 1:53pm
by Vorpal
wjhall wrote:
foxyrider wrote:Wot they have said! Look, signal, manoeuvre - just the same as in a car
.... ...


Best advice so far. A bicycle is a vehicle, so start reading with the DfT manual "Driving" and of course the Highway Code, motor traffic bits.

I opened Franklin in a public library once, it fell open at a page stating that learning to sprint is useful for cyclists. I shut it again, not my idea of safe cycling at all.

WJH

Franklin is a vehicular cycling advocate, so the book has to be read with that in mind. However, his advice for road positioning and observation methods are excellent, as are the explanations supporting them.

Re: Advice on crossing crossroads

Posted: 11 Oct 2018, 9:25pm
by JohnW
brynpoeth wrote:
mjr wrote:
foxyrider wrote:Oh and please don't wear all black, there are plenty of sensible but bright jerseys/jackets available out there, wearing one might just save your life.

No, they do nothing. Please don't give out bad advice like that - it's bad enough that this evidence-free <i>[inappropriate word removed]</i> is in the highway code. There is even some evidence that so-called "conspicuity aids" can hurt, especially in rural areas, maybe because other evidence suggests what matters is contrast with your background. When I wore a yellow hi-viz jacket (bad idea because I cycle among farms of daffodils, tulips, oilseed rap, corn, wheat and so on), I had far more SMIDSYs than now when I wear black, grey or dark blue.

Personally, I think the best thing you can do is to look like a person
..

Try putting a baby carrier on ones back stuffed with a jersey to look like a baby
That might make the motons "think"


I don't know about that bryn - they can kill two for price of one, and still be believed when they say it was your fault.

Re: Advice on crossing crossroads

Posted: 11 Oct 2018, 9:38pm
by JakobW
Re: jersey/jacket colours and conspicuity: it is worth noting that about 20 years ago the RAF changed the colour scheme of its intermediate/advanced trainers from red and white to gloss black, as this was found to provide better contrast (partly against the sky, but also against the ground; as noted, pure black isn't a colour found a great deal in nature).

Re: Advice on crossing crossroads

Posted: 11 Oct 2018, 9:46pm
by meic
It is however a very common colour on wet roads and in shadowy tree covered lanes.
Where planes seldom fly.

Re: Advice on crossing crossroads

Posted: 11 Oct 2018, 9:55pm
by JohnW
meic wrote:It is however a very common colour on wet roads and in shadowy tree covered lanes.
Where planes seldom fly.

Two recent episodes that I have witnessed have certainly confirmed to me the great value of high-viz clothing. My vote most certainly goes for high-viz.

Re: Advice on crossing crossroads

Posted: 11 Oct 2018, 10:48pm
by meic
It is a sign of how bad things are when you have to call on your army training in camouflage and apply it in reverse, just to ride a bike on the UK roads. The best you can achieve from doing this (or buying an off the peg Hi-viz to tick the box in another way) is to not be blamed for the driver not having seen you.
Even (especially?) on this forum.
What you can not achieve is to actually shift the blame where it rightfully belongs, on the motorist for not having seen you.

Now in this particular case, it was the cyclist who didnt see the motorist, so I think we are on the wrong track discussing what he should be wearing. Road positioning might be of much more use, that helps both being seen and seeing.
I am not as critical of cyclists who dont look as carefully as they should, as it is normally them rather than others who pay the price, as it was in this case.

Re: Advice on crossing crossroads

Posted: 11 Oct 2018, 11:06pm
by JohnW
meic wrote:It is a sign of how bad things are when you have to call on your army training in camouflage and apply it in reverse, just to ride a bike on the UK roads. The best you can achieve from doing this (or buying an off the peg Hi-viz to tick the box in another way) is to not be blamed for the driver not having seen you.
Even (especially?) on this forum.
What you can not achieve is to actually shift the blame where it rightfully belongs, on the motorist for not having seen you.

Now in this particular case, it was the cyclist who didnt see the motorist, so I think we are on the wrong track discussing what he should be wearing. Road positioning might be of much more use, that helps both being seen and seeing.
I am not as critical of cyclists who dont look as carefully as they should, as it is normally them rather than others who pay the price, as it was in this case.


We may have debated this before, on the Forum. I agree with all you say meic (except for not criticising cyclists who don't look what they're doing), but I see high-viz as doing the best I can to protect myself - I think that most drivers will avoid hitting us, if they know we're there, and whilst there's no doubt that drivers have the moral responsibility to look what they're doing and where they're going................they don't always, do they?

The last time one of them hit me (braking my leg and destroying my 531 Pennine frame) I was wearing a high-viz cycling top - he did it by driving into the back of me. To be honest, he was quite upset, but he still did it. The driver behind him, who was my police witness, said that she'd seen me clearly enough - and she said that with my high-viz on, how could anyone miss me? This was almost three years ago - on a straight road - in very good light conditions.

What does that prove? - well,high-viz doesn't give 100% protection, but I do believe that it does alter the odds a bit.

Re: Advice on crossing crossroads

Posted: 12 Oct 2018, 12:08am
by mjr
Good reminder about military camo. What's currently sold as "hi vis" is practically textbook dazzle camouflage, which was a form of camouflage intended not to conceal but to make it difficult for others to estimate the wearer's position, speed and heading.

Re: Advice on crossing crossroads

Posted: 12 Dec 2018, 6:05pm
by wjhall
mjr wrote:.... It's still better than trying to obey the motor traffic bits of the highway code: wearing glasses is usually a good idea for cyclists, but HC discourages it for drivers. Can you even get seatbelts for a safety bicycle? And obviously, using motorways is a no-no.


'Driving' (1) provides comprehensive instructions for cycling on motorways in the phrase '...the slowest vehicles are excluded....' . The Highway Code provides more detail on this.

Thinking about my local road network it is difficult to think of any junctions where it is sensible to do anything other than follow the course prescribed by 'Driving', or alternatively, to get off and walk. In some cases slightly more precise positioning is desirable to claim the necessary road space. This is probably why cycle facilities generally attract so much derision, anything that differs much from the instructions for motor vehicles usually is equivalent to getting off and walking.

Occasionally you can cycle a route that is roughly equivalent to getting off and walking, keep left, then get off and walk across to make a right turn, or wait until the road is completely clear as far as the eye can see before pulling out and turning right, but even that can go wrong when vehicles passing any other vehicles turning right move left, into your space.




(1) 'Driving', The Department of the Environment Manual, HMSO 1972, p175

Re: Advice on crossing crossroads

Posted: 12 Dec 2018, 6:19pm
by mjr
wjhall wrote:Thinking about my local road network it is difficult to think of any junctions where it is sensible to do anything other than follow the course prescribed by 'Driving', or alternatively, to get off and walk. In some cases slightly more precise positioning is desirable to claim the necessary road space. This is probably why cycle facilities generally attract so much derision, [...]

Your local road network is much worse than generally, from the sounds of it. The network near me has some junctions with arms that only cycles may use, some with arms that are cycles+residents only, some where there are contraflows or bypasses for cyclists. Not all of these are brilliant and some aren't worth using sometimes, but most do make things much easier - they facilitate, which surely is what facilities should do. Sounds like your local stuff may be "bin-frastructre".