Can the UK follow the Netherlands as a successful utility cycling country? - Student project.

[landsurfer]

5 mornings a week i take 3 teenagers to their collage in Sheffield, each afternoon K picks them up and takes them home. My journey is on the way to work, K's is not.
We sit in streams of traffic on the Sheffield Parkway surrounded by cars with only the driver in them...
We do not need more roads or any further infrastructure for personal vehicles ... we need to make car pools a legal reality.
Ban all vehicles off the Sheffield Parkway between 0700 - 0900hrs without a vehicle contents of 3 ... how easy to resolve our emission and traffic jam issues in one swell foop !
We might have some room on the roads for the occasional Cyclist ........

[reohn2]

5 mornings a week i take 3 teenagers to their collage in Sheffield, each afternoon K picks them up and takes them home. My journey is on the way to work, K's is not.
We sit in streams of traffic on the Sheffield Parkway surrounded by cars with only the driver in them...
We do not need more roads or any further infrastructure for personal vehicles ... we need to make car pools a legal reality.
Ban all vehicles off the Sheffield Parkway between 0700 - 0900hrs without a vehicle contents of 3 ... how easy to resolve our emission and traffic jam issues in one swell foop !
We might have some room on the roads for the occasional Cyclist ........

Whilst I agree that's a step forward,I recommend a trip to NL,there is another way for local travel

[landsurfer]

Whilst I agree that's a step forward,I recommend a trip to NL,there is another way for local travel

And i agree with you .... but lets get back to the choice ..... which Child Care Centres, Hospital SCBU's, Cancer treatment centres, CAMS projects, are you proposing to close to pay for this cycling infrastructure ?
I suppose we could just tax all pensions, private, government and others at 40% ... i'm sure there would be no issue with that ? !!

[simonhill]

I agree with landsurfer, as I said much earlier, it ain't gonna happen.......unless there is some major external thing which drives motorists off the road, eg massive oil price rise.

I've given up asking my council to complete the cycle path they promised 21 years ago. With the current cash crisis in all fields I can't see it being a very popular thing to spend money on.

Everyone always focuses on NL, but what about other countries. I've recently cycled in Taiwan and Korea where billions have been spent on cycle infrastructure. Admittedly most is for leisure eg long distance paths (a 1,000 km round island route in Taiwan and superb over 2,000kms in Korea), but some are in the towns and cities and are used for utility cycling.
Has anyone asked what drives (inspires) these countries to spend so much cash on cycling.

The really odd one is Japan. It has the biggest number of utility cyclists I have seen (excluding pre motorbike era Asia), yet they have very little cyling infrastructure. It's all ages, including unaccompanied young school kids. Many people cycle on the pavement, ALL obey tragic lights which are very pedestrian friendly. It's sometimes said that the most dangerous thing in Japan is being knocked over by a bike as you step out of your hotel. Given the high bike usage, it's strange that there isn't much leisure cycling in Japan and when they do it, it is almost always on 'recommended' routes.

Maybe we need to study Japan, not Nl, and what's more they have a more challenging climate than we do.

[Witterings]

I haven't read through all the pages of the thread so apologies if someone has already posted this link but herewith in case they haven't

https://road.cc/content/news/134759-ben ... t-says-dft

I think it'd be an interesting study if they were planning a cycle route somewhere to monitor and count the number of bikes going via that route for a period of time prior to building a cycle path / lane and then count the bike usage afterwards .... the only ting that may distort the figures is if it's built parallel to a main road cyclists may have previously taken quieter and possibly less direct side roads / routes to avoid busy roads.

[Wanlock Dod]

.... but lets get back to the choice ..... which Child Care Centres, Hospital SCBU's, Cancer treatment centres, CAMS projects, are you proposing to close to pay for this cycling infrastructure ?
I suppose we could just tax all pensions, private, government and others at 40% ... i'm sure there would be no issue with that ? !!

For a country that spends nearly 10% of GDP on treating diseases which are related to inactivity the cost really isn't the problem because we would make much greater savings in terms of the costs of healthcare.

[mattsccm]

The various questions to my comments about who , what etc are largely irrelevant. People think/know that its harder to get on a bike than get in the car and to be honest they are right. I am reasonably fit, doing at least 100 miles every week but even I know that I can't ride 15/20 miles to work in 30 mins and also stay clean tidy etc.
I'll ask everyone I see today why they don't ride a bike to work. I wonder what the response will be? Create perfect conditions and undoubtedly some people will start to use a bike but most won't. Why? Its hard work, you get wet, its takes more time and you can't drop off the kids or pick p the shopping as easily. Look at the huge increase in mail order shopping when real shops exist.
People are naturally lazy and take the easy way out. There are exceptions and of course those posting here are part of that but why assume that others want to follow even if its easy to.
Force is the only way to make people do something unpleasant and no government will do that here. If they would we would ban smoking and drinking, tax unhealthy food out of existence, punish all those who commit crime etc.
A catastrophic enforced social change is needed.
And just where is the money coming from? We all have different priorities don't we? As a teacher I would rather see the kids having books in schools than safe ways to cycle there. They can come by plane as long as they learn when they get there.
Of course it would be nice to see less pollution but messing about isn't going to see that happening any time soon. And messing about is what we do.

[mjr]

There is money. If we can spend £30bn on making inactivity worse by building roads, we can afford a tenth of that to bring the National Cycling Network up to a good standard, and probably another tenth to put decent cycleways alongside the A/B roads that still need them. Cycling projects have a far greater benefit- cost ratio than the current road follies.

[reohn2]

Whilst I agree that's a step forward,I recommend a trip to NL,there is another way for local travel

And i agree with you .... but lets get back to the choice ..... which Child Care Centres, Hospital SCBU's, Cancer treatment centres, CAMS projects, are you proposing to close to pay for this cycling infrastructure ?
I suppose we could just tax all pensions, private, government and others at 40% ... i'm sure there would be no issue with that ? !!

It's as I posted previously,the UK finds 25billion to spend on extending the road network which fills up with cars as fast as it's built,yet doesnt invest in public transport(other than the white elephanrt that is HS2),or cycling infrastructe.
We don't have to be close healthcare treatment centres or childcare centres,etc,the UK needs to realise building more roads for more cars is a pollution producing disaster.
As for taxes,it's jot the pensioners who aren't paying enough taxes,it's big multinationals who arent,the likes of Google,O2,Facebook,etc,etc.This government has also reduced taxes for the top tax brackets since it came to power,and yes it's also relieved the tax burden on the lowest earners too bu I read a report some time back (sorry don't have reference)that whilst the lowest earners were £70 per annum better off the high earners were £270 better off.So please don't make unsprealistic claims on tax payers,we know who has the money and we know are dodging their tax commitments.
I listened to a program on R4 a couple of weeks ago about the austerity program put into place by the present government after the 2008 crash,a top economist was saying the the economies that have come out of it best are the ones who borrowed and invested in their infrastructure and to keep people busy and improve their countries and a lot of them,though not all Germany was one,were far eastern countries that are now far ahead of us as a result.
I'll repeat,the UK is the fifth ricest country on the globe,it's just that the money isnt spread around enough,so it doesn't have to be either or,we can have both if the rich are made to pay their taxes.

[reohn2]

I agree with landsurfer, as I said much earlier, it ain't gonna happen.......unless there is some major external thing which drives motorists off the road, eg massive oil price rise.

I've given up asking my council to complete the cycle path they promised 21 years ago. With the current cash crisis in all fields I can't see it being a very popular thing to spend money on.

Everyone always focuses on NL, but what about other countries. I've recently cycled in Taiwan and Korea where billions have been spent on cycle infrastructure. Admittedly most is for leisure eg long distance paths (a 1,000 km round island route in Taiwan and superb over 2,000kms in Korea), but some are in the towns and cities and are used for utility cycling.
Has anyone asked what drives (inspires) these countries to spend so much cash on cycling.

The really odd one is Japan. It has the biggest number of utility cyclists I have seen (excluding pre motorbike era Asia), yet they have very little cyling infrastructure. It's all ages, including unaccompanied young school kids. Many people cycle on the pavement, ALL obey tragic lights which are very pedestrian friendly. It's sometimes said that the most dangerous thing in Japan is being knocked over by a bike as you step out of your hotel. Given the high bike usage, it's strange that there isn't much leisure cycling in Japan and when they do it, it is almost always on 'recommended' routes.

Maybe we need to study Japan, not Nl, and what's more they have a more challenging climate than we do.

See my reply to Landsurfer.

[Vorpal]

IMO, half of the money spent on building new roads could & should be spent on cycle networks & public transport.
The current hodge podge approach to making developers put in cycle paths that don't connect to anything is ridiculous. In a few places, significant strides have been made, but the UK does a poor job of learning from those places.
We *have* to do something to get people out of cars, both for the health of the population, and the health of the planet.
I think that political will is shifting, but not fast enough. Maybe that will change. I can only hope so.

[atlas_shrugged]

@Vorpal

+1 Completely agree

[Wanlock Dod]

...I can't ride 15/20 miles to work in 30 mins and also stay clean tidy etc...

I don't think that anybody is suggesting that it is the people who are travelling 20 miles each way that ought to be cycling instead of driving, but the fact is that the vast majority of the journeys that we make as a society are actually covering distances that are easily cycleable yet usually we use cars for them. We have made using cars for short distances as easy as possible, and this has been at the expense of more benign modes of travel. In the UK cycling levels are higher wherever building for cars has been least successful.

[reohn2]

The various questions to my comments about who , what etc are largely irrelevant. People think/know that its harder to get on a bike than get in the car and to be honest they are right. I am reasonably fit, doing at least 100 miles every week but even I know that I can't ride 15/20 miles to work in 30 mins and also stay clean tidy etc.

It would be unreasonable to expect anyone to cycle that distance to work or anywhere FTM,but we have people driving 2miles to work or to shop and we have 'clumped' everyday shopping into car convenient shopping areas,though that is changing slightly of late.

I'll ask everyone I see today why they don't ride a bike to work. I wonder what the response will be? Create perfect conditions and undoubtedly some people will start to use a bike but most won't. Why? Its hard work, you get wet, its takes more time and you can't drop off the kids or pick up the shopping as easily

The answers will be "it's not convenient" and "it's dangerous" and if you ask on a wet day they'll point outside.That's because we've set up a car convenient society and persisted with that thought pattern though as posted above there's signs of change for day to day shopping with the big three supermarkets opening small 'extra' shops in cities and towns.Fear is of errent motorists and closeness of traffic on an unprotected vehicle,something that decent infrastructure can alleviate,the weather is the weather though there are many northern european countries with far worse weather than the UK with far higher cycling numbers but the infrastructure is crucial to the success of cycling in these countries if you haven't already done so take a look at Copanhaganize.

Look at the huge increase in mail order shopping when real shops exist

That isn't just a UK trend and doesnt necessarily impact on cycling.

People are naturally lazy and take the easy way out

People like convenience,whether that be travel or eating,shopping,etc,etc.If cycling is made convenient and motoring not,people will change.The best example of this is in this short film:- https://vimeo.com/76207227

. There are exceptions and of course those posting here are part of that but why assume that others want to follow even if its easy to.
Force is the only way to make people do something unpleasant and no government will do that here

The easiest thing to do day to day is the same as you did yesterday,change can be hard initially but it can be softened by making it easier by incentives,and as you say government provide no incentives for cycling,very little infrastructure,and what there is varies from the sublime to the ridiculous,generally no decent parking provision and little help with taking bikes on trains due to the rail system already at capacity,which is anoher transport problem along with a lack of buses.
And you're right no conservative thinking government will change,it needs some radical thinking on transport to get people out of cars,especially for short journeys.

A catastrophic enforced social change is needed

It doesn't have to be catastrophic unless that catastrophy is positive

And just where is the money coming from?

From making people pay their far share of taxes especially he multinationals who only ever take but don't gv much at all,and redirecting some of the 25billion currently being spent on roads,and let's not forget that this government found 1billion in a drawer somewhere to give to the DUP in return for their support

We all have different priorities don't we? As a teacher I would rather see the kids having books in schools than safe ways to cycle there.

But it needn't be either or.
The current government's austerity program has been a disaster for this country,not to mention their toal incompetence of leading the country into b****t that needn't ever have been,or if it had there couldn't have been a worse time in modern day history to have that sodding referendum.

They can come by plane as long as they learn when they get there

They'll most likely come by car from not very far away.
BTW,teachers have my utmost respect in doing a very worthwhile vocation under very difficult government imposed conditions.

Of course it would be nice to see less pollution but messing about isn't going to see that happening any time soon. And messing about is what we do.

We'll mess about tinkering at the edges until we have to do something radical,it's been the way of successive totally incompetent governments that can't see any further than the end their noses,and as a result we'll flounder in nasty air and bad food because it's cheap,Other governments across the channel and north sea are more forward thinking.

EDITED for typos and clarity

[reohn2]

IMO, half of the money spent on building new roads could & should be spent on cycle networks & public transport.
The current hodge podge approach to making developers put in cycle paths that donæt connet to anything is ridiculous. In a few places, significant strides have been made, but the UK does a poor job of learning from those places.
We *have* to do something to get people out of cars, both for the health of the population, and the health of the planet.
I think that political will is shifting, but not fast enough. Maybe that will change. I can only hope so.

Agreed and I hope so too.