Can the UK follow the Netherlands as a successful utility cycling country? - Student project.

[Vorpal]

Yes, it seems more common around rural villages, but I just tried clicking around https://cycle.travel/map a bit, taking advantage of its recent display of % roads and cycleways and if it's a journey of more than a few miles and one end is in a town, it seems unusual to have more than 50% on-road except in the most rural westmost part of Denmark. If a journey is between two towns, about 10% on-road isn't unusual unless you start dragging the route around to take longer detours to avoid cycleways. These seem far lower proportions on-road than the central/southern Netherlands.

If you put in a route from Danhostel Gjerrild to Randers, or Vamdrup (Ødis) to Christiansfeld, you will see the routes that are typical of what I have encountered in Danmark. And not just in those two locations, but all over, outside of the cities. From Vamdrup to Kolding Castle, I encountered more cycle way than any other non-city route that I recall in Denmark, and according to Cycle Travel that is 31% cycleway.

So I don't know where you were just 'clicking around', but what you are saying is almost exactly opposite what I have encountered in Denmark.

How much have you cycled there?

[mjr]

Yes, it seems more common around rural villages, but I just tried clicking around https://cycle.travel/map a bit, taking advantage of its recent display of % roads and cycleways and if it's a journey of more than a few miles and one end is in a town, it seems unusual to have more than 50% on-road except in the most rural westmost part of Denmark. If a journey is between two towns, about 10% on-road isn't unusual unless you start dragging the route around to take longer detours to avoid cycleways. These seem far lower proportions on-road than the central/southern Netherlands.

If you put in a route from Danhostel Gjerrild to Randers,

That's between two places on a signposted back-road cycle route, so cycle.travel unsurprisingly follows it. I'd suggest it's not a great comparison.

or Vamdrup (Ødis) to Christiansfeld, you will see the routes that are typical of what I have encountered in Danmark. And not just in those two locations, but all over, outside of the cities. From Vamdrup to Kolding Castle, I encountered more cycle way than any other non-city route that I recall in Denmark, and according to Cycle Travel that is 31% cycleway.

And yet, if you did the third side of that triangle, from Christiansfeld Lindegade to Kolding Slotsalle, you'd get 90% cycleway. All of those are fairly short, though and I think cycle.travel will favour shorter quietish roads and numbered routes over cycleways - notably, the Vamdrup to Kolding Castle 31% cycleway route uses a numbered route that is a mile longer than a 56% cycleway route.

So I don't know where you were just 'clicking around', but what you are saying is almost exactly opposite what I have encountered in Denmark.

How much have you cycled there?

Not that much and all on Zealand/Sjælland. I've been quite clear about that. However, while I've not cycled in the sparser west of Denmark, I've mainly cycled in the more built-up parts of the Netherlands too and not its sparser north - and aren't the more built-up areas a better comparison of the models?

[Vorpal]

That's between two places on a signposted back-road cycle route, so cycle.travel unsurprisingly follows it. I'd suggest it's not a great comparison.

OK. But mostly how I've gotten around Denmark on bike is following signs. I picked that route because it is a perfect example of the sorts of routes I've used in Denmark, both touring, and day trips to & from places I've been staying. I have used similar routes in the Netherlands, and if I were to make a comparison between the two, I would say that the Netherlands is somewhat more likely to have long distance segregated cycle routes, either as a separate side path, or an independent cycle track, taking a completely different, and often shorter route. Denmark, on the other hand is somewhat more likely to have UK style (albeit better quality) style side paths. But miles of segregated routes is not something I've normally encountered in Denmark, while it is in the Netherlands.

I don't honestly think that is much between them, though if I were to pick, I'd generally take the infrastructure I've used in the Netherlands over that in Denmark.

However, while I've not cycled in the sparser west of Denmark, I've mainly cycled in the more built-up parts of the Netherlands too and not its sparser north - and aren't the more built-up areas a better comparison of the models?

Maybe? Certainly, built up areas are where there are the best possibilities to get more people on bikes, and I guess that's what's important here. From that perspective, it takes a variety of approaches, and I honestly think that the best (and easiest) approach for most built up areas, is limiting motor traffic permeability to designated cycle routes, and reducing speed limits, rather than building segregated infrastructure.

[mjr]

That's between two places on a signposted back-road cycle route, so cycle.travel unsurprisingly follows it. I'd suggest it's not a great comparison.

OK. But mostly how I've gotten around Denmark on bike is following signs. I picked that route because it is a perfect example of the sorts of routes I've used in Denmark, both touring, and day trips to & from places I've been staying. I have used similar routes in the Netherlands, and if I were to make a comparison between the two, I would say that the Netherlands is somewhat more likely to have long distance segregated cycle routes, either as a separate side path, or an independent cycle track, taking a completely different, and often shorter route. Denmark, on the other hand is somewhat more likely to have UK style (albeit better quality) style side paths. But miles of segregated routes is not something I've normally encountered in Denmark, while it is in the Netherlands.

Hm, this might be another place where our different experiences come from. I've done one trip in NL following route and node signs, but after a couple of bloopers due to missing signs, I've generally followed maps, place names and sat nav. In DK, I've only followed names/maps/nav, never the route numbers.

Also, I feel the Netherlands is far more likely to build roads that look/feel like segregated routes that actually aren't, such as the one pictured below, which is actually just a dead-ended-to-motorists road, with a centre line despite being too narrow for two-way motoring. Similar things in Denmark seemed to be cycles-only.

I think I'd agree that I'd generally take the infrastructure I've used in the Netherlands over that in Denmark, including the Dutch habit of dead-ending roads and limiting motoring routes through town centres. The main thing I'd take from Denmark is the bright paint crossing major junctions, which I feel shows and lasts better than the Dutch approach of dashed lines.

[nigelnightmare]

One way of getting motorists more aware of cyclists is making everybody who wants to drive a car HAVE to ride a bike for at least 1 year with training, minimum of 3,000 miles, before being able to apply for a driving licence. This could be done before leaving school.
This would also benefit the economy as there would be more cycles sold & greater choice = more jobs. And quite a few people would never bother getting a car in the first place.
OK so the car companies and the petroleum industries wouldn't be pleased but you can't have everything.