Wider tyres !

[hondated]

Probably because of looking at CGOAB a little too much I have suddenly got this strange urge to build a Tourer with wide tyres. So this weeks question from me given my Roberts will only take 700 x 32mm wheels and tyres it will mean buying a Surly F &F and transferring equipment over to it so the question is would I notice a significant difference in comfort and road holding if I fit 38mm - 40mm tyres or is it not worth the cost time or trouble !

[Cugel]

Probably because of looking at CGOAB a little too much I have suddenly got this strange urge to build a Tourer with wide tyres. So this weeks question from me given my Roberts will only take 700 x 32mm wheels and tyres it will mean buying a Surly F &F and transferring equipment over to it so the question is would I notice a significant difference in comfort and road holding if I fit 38mm - 40mm tyres or is it not worth the cost time or trouble !

This article may be of interest:

https://road.cc/content/buyers-guide/22 ... ere-riding

Of which this one is of particular interest:

https://road.cc/content/review/242608-c ... om-tc-tyre

A quote from the review of those particular tyres:

"I'm now planning to get a set of extra wheels so I can quickly pick and choose between the Barlow Pass and the Steilacoom depending on route, weather and frame of mind. These to me are the only two tyres anyone needs, to cover every possible drop-bar-bike route option".

Cugel

[hondated]

Probably because of looking at CGOAB a little too much I have suddenly got this strange urge to build a Tourer with wide tyres. So this weeks question from me given my Roberts will only take 700 x 32mm wheels and tyres it will mean buying a Surly F &F and transferring equipment over to it so the question is would I notice a significant difference in comfort and road holding if I fit 38mm - 40mm tyres or is it not worth the cost time or trouble !

This article may be of interest:

https://road.cc/content/buyers-guide/22 ... ere-riding

Of which this one is of particular interest:

https://road.cc/content/review/242608-c ... om-tc-tyre

A quote from the review of those particular tyres:

"I'm now planning to get a set of extra wheels so I can quickly pick and choose between the Barlow Pass and the Steilacoom depending on route, weather and frame of mind. These to me are the only two tyres anyone needs, to cover every possible drop-bar-bike route option".

Cugel

Thanks Cugel searching the forum I did come across your comments on a similar posting which I found useful.

[rotavator]

The obvious questions are:
1. Are you happy with comfort and road holding of your current tyres and bike?
2. Are you planning to use unsealed paths or gravel roads with the new bike?

If you answer no to Q1 and/or yes to Q2 then it might well be worth investing in the new bike with wider tyres. I was quite impressed with the Continental Sport Contact 2 700 x 37c tyres that I had on a test ride on rough tracks in the Peak District earlier this year.

[hondated]

The obvious questions are:
1. Are you happy with comfort and road holding of your current tyres and bike?
2. Are you planning to use unsealed paths or gravel roads with the new bike?

If you answer no to Q1 and/or yes to Q2 then it might well be worth investing in the new bike with wider tyres. I was quite impressed with the Continental Sport Contact 2 700 x 37c tyres that I had on a test ride on rough tracks in the Peak District earlier this year.

Thanks Rotavator I am not uncomfortable but if I can improve my comfort even more given I am a slow rider that would be even better. And yes if I was able to do a bit of gravel road or tracks that too would make cycling a bit more enjoyable.

[The utility cyclist]

IMHO it's not worth it going wider, there's a pretty big drop in performance for not significant/measurable comfort factor. I'd been trying a 42mm Specialized Borough tyre on the rear and switched back to a Rivendell Jack Brown 33.3mm. Previous to the 42mm I'd been using 32mm Specialized Borough Pro folding.
You could maybe drop the pressures a bit, maybe even consider latex tubes.

[PH]

If your Roberts takes 32 and guards, it'll probably take 38s without them, which seems to me to be a simple and relatively cheap experiment that will also isolate whether the effect is due to the tyres.
Sweet spot for me on a touring bike that doesn't carry great loads and is used mainly on roads or reasonably well surfaced tracks is 32 front and 35 rear. There's so many factors that lead me to that, and the possibility that some of them are imagined, that the odds are stacked against you reaching the same conclusions.

[Vantage]

My experience in going from 32mm tyres to 38mm is in stark contrast to The utility cyclist. I noticed an immediate improvement in comfort and very little in the way of performance losses. If anything, the bike rolled better on UK roads.
This going up a size using the exact same brand and model of tyre on my old bike.
On the new bike, I have a set of 1.35" Kojaks and a set of 1.5" CityJets and I will admit to finding the CityJets a tad slower, however, they are a different tyre altogether and I still prefer the bigger tyres for comfort and their ability to take bigger hits.

[simonhill]

Hondated, PM sent re Surly frame and forks.

[foxyrider]

The obvious questions are:
1. Are you happy with comfort and road holding of your current tyres and bike?
2. Are you planning to use unsealed paths or gravel roads with the new bike?

If you answer no to Q1 and/or yes to Q2 then it might well be worth investing in the new bike with wider tyres. I was quite impressed with the Continental Sport Contact 2 700 x 37c tyres that I had on a test ride on rough tracks in the Peak District earlier this year.

Why do you think you need wider tyres for unsealed trails? I get on quite happily on 23 tyres on unmade trails in the Peak District and beyond. Yes there are trails i've looked at and decided against but that's more to do with the bike characteristics than tyre size. Those trails i'd happily tackle on the CX/tour bike with its 28 tyres.

Gloopy mud is another thing, if I intended doing lots of that the CX will take 32/35 knobblies with guards - up to now i've not gone that route as I currently prefer a mostly tarmac or unsealed trail parcours.

[reohn2]

IMHO it's not worth it going wider, there's a pretty big drop in performance for not significant/measurable comfort factor. I'd been trying a 42mm Specialized Borough tyre on the rear and switched back to a Rivendell Jack Brown 33.3mm. Previous to the 42mm I'd been using 32mm Specialized Borough Pro folding.
You could maybe drop the pressures a bit, maybe even consider latex tubes.

I disagree entirely with that statement.
Comfort is increased a lot depending on the tyre,performance doesn't drop off much at all,the difference between 32 and 37mm tyres of the same make and model is negligable.
My own tests between 28 and 35mm actual size tyres with the 35mm shod bike being 1.5kg heavier over a set mostly flatish 70mile route,ridden a number of times,showed a difference of around 1mph but no more.
Comfort was night and day infavour of the 35mm bike.
It was the reason I sold my Thorn Audax MK3.
I've been riding 35 and 37mm actual size Vittoria Hypers for some 6 or 7 years now and wouldn't go back to anything smaller,in fact with the right tyre I'd go bigger such is the improvement to my cycling.
My 2d's worth

[Cugel]

IMHO it's not worth it going wider, there's a pretty big drop in performance for not significant/measurable comfort factor. I'd been trying a 42mm Specialized Borough tyre on the rear and switched back to a Rivendell Jack Brown 33.3mm. Previous to the 42mm I'd been using 32mm Specialized Borough Pro folding.
You could maybe drop the pressures a bit, maybe even consider latex tubes.

I disagree entirely with that statement.
Comfort is increased a lot depending on the tyre,performance doesn't drop off much at all,the difference between 32 and 37mm tyres of the same make and model is negligable.
My own tests between 28 and 35mm actual size tyres with the 35mm shod bike being 1.5kg heavier over a set mostly flatish 70mile route,ridden a number of times,showed a difference of around 1mph but no more.
Comfort was night and day infavour of the 35mm bike.
It was the reason I sold my Thorn Audax MK3.
I've been riding 35 and 37mm actual size Vittoria Hypers for some 6 or 7 years now and wouldn't go back to anything smaller,in fact with the right tyre I'd go bigger such is the improvement to my cycling.
My 2d's worth

There are different strokes for different folks.

I know many cyclists who feel comfortable enough on their 23mm tyres, largely because they've done thousands and thousands of miles on them and are inured to the associated discomforts to such a degree that they don't feel uncomfortable, even on 100+ mile rides. Myself, I am a pea-sensitive Princess and want every comfort I can find! For me it makes the difference between enjoyment and suffering; between being able to do 100+ mile rides and avoiding them.

But there are other arguments in favour of wider tyres besides comfort. Safety is one not often discussed. The fact (physics fact) is that wider tyres that are otherwise identical to narrower versions can have lower pressures and a wider, larger contact patch. That alone gives better grip than the narrower tyres in the same conditions. In addition, when the tyre acts as a suspension device, the bike is far less likely to momentarily leave the road when encountering ramps, bumps and so forth. Fatter/wider tyres at the right pressure are better suspension devices than are narrower versions at higher pressure.

Incidentally, here's another interesting Jan Heine article on tyre design, size, pressure and suspension effects:

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/11/ ... pressures/

For tyres of the same design, it looks like the losses from being slightly less aero when the tyre is wider are miniscule. In addition, if the tyre is designed for low rolling resistance, it often has even less in the wider than the narrower version. The design of the tyre, rather than just extra width per se, is relevant then.

Increased tyre weight may detract from average speed but that's most the case if the route has a significant degree of rise and fall. Flatter routes at a steadier pace don't require more pedalling energy once one has accelerated to speed - might even require less - with wider and thus heavier tyres that are otherwise the same as the narrower versions.

Cugel

[Bmblbzzz]

The obvious questions are:
1. Are you happy with comfort and road holding of your current tyres and bike?
2. Are you planning to use unsealed paths or gravel roads with the new bike?

If you answer no to Q1 and/or yes to Q2 then it might well be worth investing in the new bike with wider tyres. I was quite impressed with the Continental Sport Contact 2 700 x 37c tyres that I had on a test ride on rough tracks in the Peak District earlier this year.

Why do you think you need wider tyres for unsealed trails? I get on quite happily on 23 tyres on unmade trails in the Peak District and beyond. Yes there are trails i've looked at and decided against but that's more to do with the bike characteristics than tyre size. Those trails i'd happily tackle on the CX/tour bike with its 28 tyres.

Gloopy mud is another thing, if I intended doing lots of that the CX will take 32/35 knobblies with guards - up to now i've not gone that route as I currently prefer a mostly tarmac or unsealed trail parcours.

What sort of unmade trails? If they're dirt and gravel or grass then sure you can ride them on narrow tyres. The benefits of wider tyres are felt mainly when it's rocky IME, as the greater width gives more cushioning. And mud, as you say, is another thing. Wider tyres are of benefit there but what's really needed is deep knobbles. Whatever tyres you're using, rider skill is a big factor off-road (and if your skill level is low, you'll benefit more from the help of the wider tyres!)

[The utility cyclist]

IMHO it's not worth it going wider, there's a pretty big drop in performance for not significant/measurable comfort factor. I'd been trying a 42mm Specialized Borough tyre on the rear and switched back to a Rivendell Jack Brown 33.3mm. Previous to the 42mm I'd been using 32mm Specialized Borough Pro folding.
You could maybe drop the pressures a bit, maybe even consider latex tubes.

I disagree entirely with that statement.
Comfort is increased a lot depending on the tyre,performance doesn't drop off much at all,the difference between 32 and 37mm tyres of the same make and model is negligable.
My own tests between 28 and 35mm actual size tyres with the 35mm shod bike being 1.5kg heavier over a set mostly flatish 70mile route,ridden a number of times,showed a difference of around 1mph but no more.
Comfort was night and day infavour of the 35mm bike.
It was the reason I sold my Thorn Audax MK3.
I've been riding 35 and 37mm actual size Vittoria Hypers for some 6 or 7 years now and wouldn't go back to anything smaller,in fact with the right tyre I'd go bigger such is the improvement to my cycling.
My 2d's worth

There are different strokes for different folks.

I know many cyclists who feel comfortable enough on their 23mm tyres, largely because they've done thousands and thousands of miles on them and are inured to the associated discomforts to such a degree that they don't feel uncomfortable, even on 100+ mile rides. Myself, I am a pea-sensitive Princess and want every comfort I can find! For me it makes the difference between enjoyment and suffering; between being able to do 100+ mile rides and avoiding them.

But there are other arguments in favour of wider tyres besides comfort. Safety is one not often discussed. The fact (physics fact) is that wider tyres that are otherwise identical to narrower versions can have lower pressures and a wider, larger contact patch. That alone gives better grip than the narrower tyres in the same conditions. In addition, when the tyre acts as a suspension device, the bike is far less likely to momentarily leave the road when encountering ramps, bumps and so forth. Fatter/wider tyres at the right pressure are better suspension devices than are narrower versions at higher pressure.

Incidentally, here's another interesting Jan Heine article on tyre design, size, pressure and suspension effects:

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/11/ ... pressures/

For tyres of the same design, it looks like the losses from being slightly less aero when the tyre is wider are miniscule. In addition, if the tyre is designed for low rolling resistance, it often has even less in the wider than the narrower version. The design of the tyre, rather than just extra width per se, is relevant then.

Increased tyre weight may detract from average speed but that's most the case if the route has a significant degree of rise and fall. Flatter routes at a steadier pace don't require more pedalling energy once one has accelerated to speed - might even require less - with wider and thus heavier tyres that are otherwise the same as the narrower versions.

Cugel

Only if you inflate the wider tyres to pressures beyond which you would require and to retain the comfrt factor.Tests between Conti GP4000SII in 23/25/28mm the latter measuring an actual 31mm in the wheel, showed that whilst the wider tyre at certain pressures has less rolling resistance (which would be lost by extra aero drag even at low speeds) this wasn't going to be the case at practical pressures for the wider tyre.

For me + bike using bertos charts (yes they are not absolutes and are there as a guide) and 55/45 r/f weigh balance a 31mm tyre indicates inflating to 83/66psi, rolling resistance for the 28mmConti is 12.7w/14.1w @80/60psi, so ever so slightly less energy absorbed at my pressures.

Voyager Hyoer which is a very well respected wider 'touring' tyre comes, in at exactly 37mm on the testers 17C rim, at that width for my same weight+bike that comes out at 61/48psi, the rolling resistance tests show the Hyper at 17.7w/21.1w at 60/45psi, so again a small reduction based on my 'Berto' tyre pressures for the load.
You will of course lose a few more watts due to the additional aerodynamic drag of a wider tyre, how much, I don't know but it is more, we won't go into extra 150g weight per tyre (between a 37mm Hyper and a Conti 28mm) because we're not riding crits, one may even have to fit wider/heavier wheels to be able to utilise a 38-40mm such as the OP is asking about, this will of course again have an adverse effect on performance.
Some of my rides are on far smoother surfaces than that used on the rolling drum that BRR uses for his tests, the narrower tyres wins out even more in those circumstances, this would be offset by much poorer condition roads so the wider tyre gains back in such conditions.

We're all different, people can use whatever they want but claims to say wider tyres are faster than narrower only really occurs if you use pressures that are beyond what is practical before losing out in the comfort stakes that a lower pressure is supposed to give you, those higher pressures to achieve the better rolling resistance could even push the tyre beyond the manufacturers recommended inflation limits for some tyres.

Comfort wise, I think it's really difficult to measure, I ride in a subtly more aggressive position on my carbon bike, but not extreme due to old rugby injuries to my shoulder and being a big lad up top there's no way I could hold a really low position for long, currently using high end 25mm/27mm tyres. is that less comfortable than a lesser aggressive position using 42mm tyres and with a Brooks, honestly I could not say, I think you adapt in the feeling you have for any one given set of circumstances.
What I can say is that riding xx miles at similar speeds on different bikes, I would however have to push harder on the bike with the wider tyres and the slightly more upright position to achieve that same speed as that on the racier machine, that would leave me more fatigued.

YMMV

[reohn2]

My ,' tests' have shown 37mm Hypers at 45f 65r on a Salsa Vaya touring bike weighing 12.5kg with 85kg onboard to be remarkably more comfortable than a Thorn Audax MK3 weighing 10.5kg with the same weight on board,on various various 28mm tyres, at around 70f and 100r, and 1mph or less slower on a flatish course with one significant climb of about a mile long in it.The tarmac on that route is mainly average with quite a bit of chip n seal and quite a bit of crapmac.
As I posted before it was the main reason I sold my Thorn.
I will say that big supple tyres run at optimum pressure for load,feel slower due to less or no high frequency vibration,which IMO many cyclists equate with speed,but the numbers don't lie,the other plus is to be able to descend far quicker on the bigger tyre and to be able to take to gravel at speed with far more confidence with the bike feeling far more planted and predictable despite Hypers being slick,it's the same story with the new 50mm Marathon Supremes fitted to my latested Genesis Vagabond run at 25f 45r though they don't feel as comfortable as the Hypers depite being a bigger tyre though they roll very well indeed.
I can only speak as I find.