Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

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Vorpal
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby Vorpal » 9 Jan 2019, 1:49pm

There have been a few other threads on a similar topic, though I think most are about speeding (on a pedal cycle) in Royal Parks...

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=124309
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=92180
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=81247

This is about signs viewtopic.php?f=7&t=110524

You'd likely find other by searching.

As above, if you wish to fight this, your best route is legal counsel.
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drossall
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby drossall » 9 Jan 2019, 2:19pm

mjr wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:On the subject of the clarity of the signs, I interpret the regs to mean "no cycling except where it's permitted." It may seem academic but that's not the same as "no cycling where it's banned."

Isn't that true more generally? Unless you've reason to believe something is cycle able, such as looking like a carriageway or having blue bike signs or bridleway or byway signs, one should assume that it's not.

The opposite, I thought. My understanding is that English law traditionally allows anything it doesn't ban (within reason). So, you need a reason not to be allowed to cycle somewhere. That can variously be specific legislation (e.g. it's a footway alongside a road), trespass (e.g. it's a public footpath and the only right of passage that the public have is on foot), or the absence of a bye-law. That's a good thing, because all you need to watch out for is clear signage, or the fact that this is private land (usually fenced off).

Seemingly the Royal Parks rather reverse that, but actually all public parks are places where you'd be careful, because normal rules don't apply. Same for sea fronts.

I got caught out parking abroad once (think it was Belgium). We saw the P sign for parking, but nothing to say you had to pay, and the machine must have been hidden behind another car or something. Not much to do but pay up. The official in the town hall where I went to pay the fine said I could contest it, but I'd have had to claim either that no-one could see the machine (even though everyone else paid), or that I was unusually thick. No comment. On the whole, I guess that paying for the occasional honest mistake is better than a free-for-all in which everyone does as he or she likes.

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Mick F
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby Mick F » 9 Jan 2019, 3:39pm

drossall wrote:I got caught out parking abroad once ........
Why pay if you're abroad?
Once back in Blightly, they can forget it!

Mate of mine now lives in USA and married to a Florida girl. He lives in Florida permanently and visits his home county Yorkshire every now and then and not done for years.

Once, he and his wife visited London driving a hire car. He strayed into the Congestion Charge Zone and when he returned the hire car prior to flying home, he was presented with a bill. This was back in the early 2000s when the CC was first begun. He never paid a penny because he'd gone back to USA and they dropped the issue as it's not worth them pursuing it.
Mick F. Cornwall

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pedalsheep
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby pedalsheep » 9 Jan 2019, 5:24pm

You do seem to have been treated very harshly. About 15 years ago I was stopped by a policeman for cycling in St. James' Park. It was 7.30 in the morning, I was riding slowly and carefully on a Brompton enjoying the flowers and birdsong,and the park was empty except for a policeman hiding behind a bush at the end of a bridge. (I would never have tried to cycle through there later in the day). Like you I found it a very unpleasant experience (although I knew I was in the wrong), was threatened with court proceedings and required to prove my name and address. In the end all that happened was I received a letter from the Parks' police giving me an official caution.
'Why cycling for joy is not the most popular pastime on earth is still a mystery to me.'
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby Sweep » 9 Jan 2019, 5:36pm

robing wrote:Going back to the initial incident, did the OP have to give their name and address to the cop, or could they have just chosen the right to remain silent? It's a bit a grey area. They could in theory arrest you, but for what, a bye law?


Yes - I wonder about this.Many of these folk aren't actually police.

I am a law abiding sort but don't welcome getting fined for being somewhere I am supposedly not supposed to be if I am being considerate and careful.

What's really to stop you being pleasant as pie to the person and just giving a sensible sounding false name and address? Do they look up what you tell them on an online database to check?

Until recently I quite often rode through the bus station in front of Victoria Station to avoid the horrors of the multi-lane mini urban motorway around it. Am careful so never any problems. Few weeks ago as I exited a chap did exit from a box and give me a talking too. Said he had me on camera but wouldn't fine me this time. Must say he was very reasonable, Probably won't be doing that again.
Sweep

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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby drossall » 9 Jan 2019, 5:54pm

Mick F wrote:Why pay if you're abroad?

Because I was guilty?

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Mick F
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby Mick F » 9 Jan 2019, 6:24pm

drossall wrote:
Mick F wrote:Why pay if you're abroad?

Because I was guilty?
I agree, but my question still remains.

Fines are only revenue makers.
Mick F. Cornwall

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pedalsheep
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby pedalsheep » 9 Jan 2019, 6:38pm

Sweep wrote:
robing wrote:Going back to the initial incident, did the OP have to give their name and address to the cop, or could they have just chosen the right to remain silent? It's a bit a grey area. They could in theory arrest you, but for what, a bye law?


Yes - I wonder about this.Many of these folk aren't actually police.

I am a law abiding sort but don't welcome getting fined for being somewhere I am supposedly not supposed to be if I am being considerate and careful.

What's really to stop you being pleasant as pie to the person and just giving a sensible sounding false name and address? Do they look up what you tell them on an online database to check?

When I was stopped I was asked to produce documents to prove my identity (I used a bank card and a chainsaw proficiency test card!). I don't know what would have happened if I claimed to have no ID.
'Why cycling for joy is not the most popular pastime on earth is still a mystery to me.'
Frank J Urry, Salute to Cycling, 1956.

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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby Sweep » 9 Jan 2019, 7:04pm

pedalsheep wrote:
Sweep wrote:
robing wrote:Going back to the initial incident, did the OP have to give their name and address to the cop, or could they have just chosen the right to remain silent? It's a bit a grey area. They could in theory arrest you, but for what, a bye law?


Yes - I wonder about this.Many of these folk aren't actually police.

I am a law abiding sort but don't welcome getting fined for being somewhere I am supposedly not supposed to be if I am being considerate and careful.

What's really to stop you being pleasant as pie to the person and just giving a sensible sounding false name and address? Do they look up what you tell them on an online database to check?

When I was stopped I was asked to produce documents to prove my identity (I used a bank card and a chainsaw proficiency test card!). I don't know what would have happened if I claimed to have no ID.


mm

and of course there is no obligation to carry ID in the UK.
Sweep

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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby brynpoeth » 9 Jan 2019, 7:39pm

Sweep wrote:
robing wrote:Going back to the initial incident, did the OP have to give their name and address to the cop, or could they have just chosen the right to remain silent? It's a bit a grey area. They could in theory arrest you, but for what, a bye law?


Yes - I wonder about this.Many of these folk aren't actually police.

I am a law abiding sort but don't welcome getting fined for being somewhere I am supposedly not supposed to be if I am being considerate and careful.

What's really to stop you being pleasant as pie to the person and just giving a sensible sounding false name and address? Do they look up what you tell them on an online database to check?
..

I would be wary of giving a false name and address, feels a bit like points swapping
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras & STOP signs

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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby The utility cyclist » 9 Jan 2019, 7:53pm

Dafydd17 wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:What is 'whizzing' and what is 'silly speeds'? Do you expect people on bikes to slow down to less than jogging speed and move onto the road instea dof passing within a metre or so, often greater than received by motorists at three and four times the speed? Pedestrians are no more vulnerable than people on bikes, whilst you can/should take caution for pedestrians who cannot see you, being disgruntled because a cyclist came past you at a reasonable distance given the harm posed at 2-3 times LESS than the posted speed limit for motorvehicles just 3-4 feet away is ludicrous.
Pedestrians over react far too often, they get a bee in their bonnet over nothing, you always hear, 'nearly hit me', funny how that's a very common theme and government stats prove that peds put themselves in danger and do not take care when it comes to collisions with pedestrians, 50% worse when it comes to deaths. So the evidence shows us it's not cyclists not taking care but pedestrians, that's even through the eyes of those wanting more laws and wanting to punish people on bikes greater than they already are.

Let's not start down the route of using subjective language like 'whizzing' and 'silly speeds' when they are meaningless, particularly when the facts show us pedestrians take less care than people on bikes for their safety despite the similarities in vulnerability.



Thank you so much for clearing that up for me - I just hadn't realized! Let me see if I've got it right, if I'm on my bike, I can ride as fast as I like regardless of danger to pedestrians, should I hit one it's their own silly fault. And if I'm on foot, well, I deserve everything I get for being in the way. Well, that's OK then.

Where did I say go as fast as you like? Where did I say put pedestrians in danger? Where did I say if you hit one they are at fault?
Crack on because if you want to ignore what I actually said and what governments own report on who was at fault between peds and cyclists when a ped dies then that's your failing! :roll:

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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby bogmyrtle » 9 Jan 2019, 8:47pm

brynpoeth wrote:
Sweep wrote:
robing wrote:Going back to the initial incident, did the OP have to give their name and address to the cop, or could they have just chosen the right to remain silent? It's a bit a grey area. They could in theory arrest you, but for what, a bye law?


Yes - I wonder about this.Many of these folk aren't actually police.

I am a law abiding sort but don't welcome getting fined for being somewhere I am supposedly not supposed to be if I am being considerate and careful.

What's really to stop you being pleasant as pie to the person and just giving a sensible sounding false name and address? Do they look up what you tell them on an online database to check?
..

I would be wary of giving a false name and address, feels a bit like points swapping

It would be a further offence.
A bike does more miles to the banana than a Porsche.

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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby bogmyrtle » 9 Jan 2019, 8:50pm

This is another post where the op hasn't returned.
Own up. Who's playing games?
A bike does more miles to the banana than a Porsche.

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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby brynpoeth » 9 Jan 2019, 8:57pm

bogmyrtle wrote:This is another post where the op hasn't returned.
Own up. Who's playing games?

Maybe s/he has checked replies without logging in, that is quite possible
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
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drossall
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby drossall » 9 Jan 2019, 10:17pm

Mick F wrote:I agree, but my question still remains.

Fines are only revenue makers.

No, they are incentives to obey rules that, at least in principle, are made for everyone's benefit.

If I don't pay a parking fine, I must assume that no-one else has to either. If no-one ever pays parking fines, parking rules will not be enforced. If parking rules are not enforced, I won't be able find a parking place next time I'm in town, and may not even be able to drive through, or drive through safely, because of cars all over the place.

So, when I made a mistake and parked wrongly, I coughed up.

If I disagree with the rules, there are channels through which I can challenge them. Ignoring them isn't one of those.