Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

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Vorpal
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby Vorpal » 10 Jan 2019, 8:28am

pedalsheep wrote:
Sweep wrote:
robing wrote:Going back to the initial incident, did the OP have to give their name and address to the cop, or could they have just chosen the right to remain silent? It's a bit a grey area. They could in theory arrest you, but for what, a bye law?


Yes - I wonder about this.Many of these folk aren't actually police.

I am a law abiding sort but don't welcome getting fined for being somewhere I am supposedly not supposed to be if I am being considerate and careful.

What's really to stop you being pleasant as pie to the person and just giving a sensible sounding false name and address? Do they look up what you tell them on an online database to check?

When I was stopped I was asked to produce documents to prove my identity (I used a bank card and a chainsaw proficiency test card!). I don't know what would have happened if I claimed to have no ID.


First, the folks who have the power to stop cyclists, even if they are not police, usually also have the power to request your name and address under the Community Safety Accreditation Scheme (CSAS). Secondly, if you don't have identification
-it is an offence to give false information
-if they have cause to believe that you have given false information, you may be taken for a visit to a station (or park warden's office, or other convenient location) until they can verify your information

If the person who requests your information is not a police officer, they certainly have communication with the police. Some use police radios, or have another, relatively direct means of communication with police. The CSAS includes the Police Community Support Officers, Park Wardens, transport PCSOs, etc.
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robing
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby robing » 10 Jan 2019, 8:46am

You have the right to ask for the officer's id. Giving false information is an offence but refusal may not be.
I wonder if the OP had remained calm and polite they might have been able to reason with plod? Assuming they were reasonable?

thirdcrank
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby thirdcrank » 10 Jan 2019, 9:43am

Re the right to silence, I think this is better described as the right to avoid self-incrimination. I don't think there's ever been a right to avoid identification. The only way to be certain of ID is arrest and custody till there's a hearing which is often unnecessary. Prior to the Criminal Law Act 1967, the only general powers of arrest for offences were for felonies. That's gradually changed so that now you can be arrested for any criminal offence no matter how minor if there's doubt about your ID.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby The utility cyclist » 10 Jan 2019, 6:38pm

'arrested', which on many occasion is really just being kidnapped because you didn't want to give up your rights and despite being threatened/made to feel fear of harm as well as threat of penalty and further punishment, despite there being no victim whatsoever and your actions are demonstrably proven to be of less threat of harm than those whom are not assaulted by the paramilitary of the rich and powerful :twisted:

Didn't we write laws so that those higher up the chain couldn't do as they wanted, including illegal imprisonment, unfair financial penalties etc it's pretty clear that those who hold the power can write 'laws' to suit their agendas and to control the plebs ever further and without fairness. Something that a so called constable has sworn an oath to act in. Let's remind ourselves of that oath.

I ... do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve the Queen in the office of constable with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality, upholding fundamental human rights and according equal respect to all people.

Except that's a rare thing these days isn't it, human rights are infringed because the power people write ever more rights infringing statute, that they decide upon, because they don't want you to have rights and freedoms, so PC plod don't act fairly and with impartiality, every day you see police act against their sworn oath/attestation, as I said, paramilitary for the rich and powerful.

I have nothing but contempt for the 'modern' police force and those that wield it!

atlas_shrugged
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby atlas_shrugged » 10 Jan 2019, 7:01pm

@The Utility Cyclist - agree with you 100%

Which gives me an idea - Go to the head man, or in this case woman

Cite the Bill of Rights - No arbitrary fine except by judgement of your peers (I forget the wording) Mark the letter Private and Confidential to HM.

Then if there is no successful reply send off a complaint under Magna Carta section 61. If after 40 days you have no redress to your complaint you are lawfully allowed to seize lands and castles etc etc. I would start by seizing the park.

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Mick F
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby Mick F » 10 Jan 2019, 7:07pm

atlas_shrugged wrote:@The Utility Cyclist - agree with you 100%
Me too.
Mick F. Cornwall

thirdcrank
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby thirdcrank » 10 Jan 2019, 7:16pm

Memory Lane time. Around fifty years ago there was a recruiting campaign with the slogan Join Britain's Modern Police. The tired and worn out joke was for colleagues returning to the station to announce "I've come to join Britain's modern police. I'm fed up with being in the old-fashioned police." :wink:

robing
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby robing » 10 Jan 2019, 8:23pm

It's not a police force though now is it? It's a police service

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Graham
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby Graham » 10 Jan 2019, 8:49pm

EllaSquish ( the OP ) was last logged in @ 21 minutes after she posted this topic.

It doesn't mean that she hasn't been back to "read only", but this might give us some guide as to further effort.

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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby mjr » 10 Jan 2019, 10:34pm

robing wrote:It's not a police force though now is it? It's a police service

AFAIK, ours is still a constabulary, same as ever.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Sweep
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby Sweep » 11 Jan 2019, 7:13pm

Vorpal wrote:
pedalsheep wrote:
Sweep wrote:
Yes - I wonder about this.Many of these folk aren't actually police.

I am a law abiding sort but don't welcome getting fined for being somewhere I am supposedly not supposed to be if I am being considerate and careful.

What's really to stop you being pleasant as pie to the person and just giving a sensible sounding false name and address? Do they look up what you tell them on an online database to check?

When I was stopped I was asked to produce documents to prove my identity (I used a bank card and a chainsaw proficiency test card!). I don't know what would have happened if I claimed to have no ID.


First, the folks who have the power to stop cyclists, even if they are not police, usually also have the power to request your name and address under the Community Safety Accreditation Scheme (CSAS). Secondly, if you don't have identification
-it is an offence to give false information
-if they have cause to believe that you have given false information, you may be taken for a visit to a station (or park warden's office, or other convenient location) until they can verify your information

If the person who requests your information is not a police officer, they certainly have communication with the police. Some use police radios, or have another, relatively direct means of communication with police. The CSAS includes the Police Community Support Officers, Park Wardens, transport PCSOs, etc.


Thanks for the info Vorpal.

In case anyone has taken me for an anti social "sod society" lout I had better stress that I'm not. Just have an aversion to instant fines, particularly for offences I might not have been aware of. Must admit it occurred to me to give a wonky address when a community support bod pulled me over in east london a couple of years ago because I went a little over a line in front of a car at a junction - I wasn't going to jump the light, just positioning myself for the off when the lights changed. Will be more careful in future in parks.
Sweep

thirdcrank
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby thirdcrank » 11 Jan 2019, 8:20pm

Vorpal wrote: ... First, the folks who have the power to stop cyclists, even if they are not police, usually also have the power to request your name and address under the Community Safety Accreditation Scheme (CSAS). Secondly, if you don't have identification
-it is an offence to give false information
-if they have cause to believe that you have given false information, you may be taken for a visit to a station (or park warden's office, or other convenient location) until they can verify your information

If the person who requests your information is not a police officer, they certainly have communication with the police. Some use police radios, or have another, relatively direct means of communication with police. The CSAS includes the Police Community Support Officers, Park Wardens, transport PCSOs, etc.


Is there anything more recent about this initiative? The most recent I can find by following your link dates from 2012 when FWIW, there were six such schems in the Metropolitan Police District, mostly involving local authority people. It seems a bit of an irony that the next force alphabetically after the Met - Norfolk - lists 15 BCF race marshals.

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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby Vorpal » 11 Jan 2019, 8:47pm

thirdcrank wrote:Is there anything more recent about this initiative? The most recent I can find by following your link dates from 2012 when FWIW, there were six such schems in the Metropolitan Police District, mostly involving local authority people. It seems a bit of an irony that the next force alphabetically after the Met - Norfolk - lists 15 BCF race marshals.


There is a fair amount of informaiton about the scheme and the people working in it.

NPCC have this guidance and last updated it in 2015 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... idance.pdf

There was an annual national audit until the survey that you noted. I believe that the government decided it was a undue bureaucratic burden and have not required the information (provided by the police forces from each authority), since then.

Wikipedia seems to have a decent entry, though even their example (Essex) list appears to lack quite a few a entries.
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby brynpoeth » 11 Jan 2019, 8:50pm

Sweep wrote:..
In case anyone has taken me for an anti social "sod society" lout I had better stress that I'm not. Just have an aversion to instant fines, particularly for offences I might not have been aware of. Must admit it occurred to me to give a wonky address when a community support bod pulled me over..

Might not have been aware of? :?
Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but surely one cannae be required to pay on the spot
Maybe the policeperson could just give a verbal warning if one is friendly and regretful, but would that be discrimination?
..
I am dreaming up a sketch about giving a false name and address, could it be a real address or a non-existent one, a real name? Railway Cuttings, East Cheam or Cotterell House, Godalming might be worth a try :wink:
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thirdcrank
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Re: Royal Park cycling - charged with offence

Postby thirdcrank » 11 Jan 2019, 9:03pm

Thanks for that. It looks like a charter for company police.