Base Layers ... Much Difference Between Them

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
1066enthalpies1939
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Re: Base Layers ... Much Difference Between Them

Postby 1066enthalpies1939 » 22 Jan 2019, 12:40pm

Oldjohnw wrote:I avoid anything with the word 'thermal'!



WHY?

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deliquium
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Re: Base Layers ... Much Difference Between Them

Postby deliquium » 22 Jan 2019, 1:30pm

Sweep wrote:
Cours wrote:I wear a cheap merino long sleeve top as a base layer and can confirm it stays stink free for longer!


It's true - must admit I found it very hard to believe at first. As long as you are clean before putting it on, you don't need to wash merino that much at all, especially when not doing tough day rides.


I managed 21 consecutive cycle rides between washes -and it it still didn't smell at all :mrgreen: DHB long sleeve merino :D
Last edited by deliquium on 22 Jan 2019, 1:59pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Oldjohnw
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Re: Base Layers ... Much Difference Between Them

Postby Oldjohnw » 22 Jan 2019, 1:35pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
I avoid anything with the word 'thermal'!



WHY?


I possibly slightly overstated my case but the reasons are:

1. What on earth does it mean?
2. Do people stick the word on to a product simply to make punters think that the garments are specially good?
3. What the item is made of is of much greater importance.

I have no doubt that many are perfectly happy with their so named garments which is fine by me.
John

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andrew_s
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Re: Base Layers ... Much Difference Between Them

Postby andrew_s » 22 Jan 2019, 2:12pm

slowster wrote:try wearing a Brynje mesh with a merino base layer over it.

Brynje sell that as their separate "Arctic" range
There's a thread on Cyclechat where someone was looking for an extra warm base layer last winter, and ended up pleased with it.

Before I bought it, I'd want to know whether it was a regular "liner" garment, with inner & outer panels connected at the edges only, or whether the two layers were knitted together somehow. The former case would seem to give away the flexibility of two separate layers for little gain.

slowster
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Re: Base Layers ... Much Difference Between Them

Postby slowster » 22 Jan 2019, 2:53pm

andrew_s wrote:
slowster wrote:try wearing a Brynje mesh with a merino base layer over it.

Brynje sell that as their separate "Arctic" range
There's a thread on Cyclechat where someone was looking for an extra warm base layer last winter, and ended up pleased with it.

Before I bought it, I'd want to know whether it was a regular "liner" garment, with inner & outer panels connected at the edges only, or whether the two layers were knitted together somehow. The former case would seem to give away the flexibility of two separate layers for little gain.

The panels of mesh fabric and merino fabric in the Brynje Arctic range are separate and only stitched together at the seams and hems. If you want a baselayer comprising a (non-mesh) polypropylene inner layer and merino outer layer where the two layers are bonded together, then I suggest you look at Helly Hansen's Warm Freeze range.

A stand alone polypropylene mesh baselayer with a separate merino outer layer is probably the better option for most people:

- The Brynje Arctic tops are potentially more expensive than a Brynje mesh top plus a separate merino top from another brand. If you already have a merino top, then you only need buy the mesh baselayer.
- You can wear the mesh baselayer as the sole baselayer, or double it up with any other baselayer you own, merino or otherwise.
- Polypropylene baselayers will typically require washing much more frequently than merino, but will dry very quickly (unlike merino). A combined garment like Brynje's Arctic and Helly Hansen's Warm Freeze ranges will potentially combine the worst features of both: frequent washing needed and also slow drying. In contrast you could have two or three Brynje mesh baselayers which could be washed in rotation and worn with just one merino top.

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andrew_s
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Re: Base Layers ... Much Difference Between Them

Postby andrew_s » 22 Jan 2019, 6:20pm

slowster wrote:The panels of mesh fabric and merino fabric in the Brynje Arctic range are separate and only stitched together at the seams and hems.

Good to be sure.
I'll stick with 2 separate layers.

Usually, it's a mesh layer, then a merino blend jersey (Torm, which is fairly light), then one or items selected from nothing, another long sleeve top, a windproof (with or without sleeves), or a waterproof, according to conditions.

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Sweep
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Re: Base Layers ... Much Difference Between Them

Postby Sweep » 22 Jan 2019, 7:23pm

Thanks for this thread folks, so glad I wandered in, would never have thought of the poly mesh and merino combination. Am now sorted for the coldest weather I think. Am a great believer in layering with thin stuff rather than entrusting all to a single wonder product.
Sweep

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Re: Base Layers ... Much Difference Between Them

Postby SpaceCaptainTheodore » 23 Jan 2019, 4:30pm

Just to add to the mesh & merino fan club, I'll add that I came to the same configuration from another route.

I am, substantially, of the 'runs hot' variety (to a 'freakish' extent, in the opinion of one experienced observer). However, this means if there's any real exertion (i.e. beyond skiing, which is mostly waiting to get to the bottom in artful manner) I sweat a bucket and chill badly as soon as I stop or slow. I settled on some decathlon polypropylene baselayers (which were substantially cheaper than Brynje at the time) under a very lightweight merino jersey. This serves me excellently in a very wide range of conditions and, I think brings the best out of each material.

Because the merino is there for the sweat to dump into, I think the mesh layer takes much longer to get that distinctive synthetic baselayer fug. Because the merino isn't pressed against your skin, it seems able to more efficiently lose more sweat as vapour and, so, does all the wonder things promised of merino. I've managed to get five days use out of a mesh-layer at moderate intensity (with a daily bath!).

This tack makes it possible to go winter Munro-ing where, otherwise, my temperature drops too hard after the first peak. Works well for skiing and cycling too and, shamefully, has led me toward wearing old cotton string vests around the house. I, and other converts, have found the cheap mesh layers from Decathlon and Aldi (available in last summer's cycle event) to be very adequate, even without exciting odour elimination stuff.

julianm
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Re: Base Layers ... Much Difference Between Them

Postby julianm » 23 Jan 2019, 6:59pm

I liked the idea of the Brynje mesh stuff, but not sure I could cope with the tights:
s-l1600.jpg

I'd just keep thinking of Marlene Deitrich....

Jamesh
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Re: Base Layers ... Much Difference Between Them

Postby Jamesh » 24 Jan 2019, 8:28am

I run road races and often the goodie bag has a technical t shirt in it! So problem solved! I do notice if I ever put a cotton t shirt on instead big mistake!!

Cheers James

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pjclinch
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Re: Base Layers ... Much Difference Between Them

Postby pjclinch » 24 Jan 2019, 11:24am

Oldjohnw wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
I avoid anything with the word 'thermal'!

WHY?


I possibly slightly overstated my case but the reasons are:

1. What on earth does it mean?
2. Do people stick the word on to a product simply to make punters think that the garments are specially good?
3. What the item is made of is of much greater importance.

I have no doubt that many are perfectly happy with their so named garments which is fine by me.


Beyond this, while some base layers can reasonably be described as "thermals" in the sense they're trying to keep you warm, other examples are far more to do with moisture handling than insulation, particularly the thinner ones. On a nice day I probably won't want "thermals", but will still probably use a "base layer".

Another term might be "comfort layer". In a layering system its job is to keep you comfortable at your skin. This will usually involve dealing with sweat, but in terms of heat it might be optimised to let you lose it as much as keep it, horses for courses depending on the conditions.

As far as keeping warm, if you know it's going to be cold then a thicker base/comfort layer that adds some insulation makes sense but it's mid/insulation layer(s) that are most typically called upon to do the heavy lifting for that, with the shell layer being on hand to keep out the wind and rain, which helps the other layers do their own work if the weather's bad.

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pjclinch
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Re: Base Layers ... Much Difference Between Them

Postby pjclinch » 24 Jan 2019, 12:06pm

Sweep wrote:Thanks for this thread folks, so glad I wandered in, would never have thought of the poly mesh and merino combination. Am now sorted for the coldest weather I think. Am a great believer in layering with thin stuff rather than entrusting all to a single wonder product.


The trick is there's more than one way to cool off than removing the quantity of insulation.

With a Buffalo you can step up the warmth by sealing cuffs, sealing vents and pulling the pile closer to your body with a variety of straps and tabs, or you can cool off by rolling up the sleeves, undoing the side and neck zips and loosening the fit. These do work remarkably well, but it is the case (especially with the chunkier ones) that while Buffalo claim they "replace up to 4 layers" that really means 2 or 3 to 4 layers, not 1 to 4: you can never replicate wearing just a Helly Lifa shirt with Buffalo Pile-Pertex garment. On a day like today (pretty chilly here!) that's not a problem, though when it gets warmer it certainly can be.

If you've been brought up on layering (as most outdoor pursuits types have) it's a bit heretical to just put on one thing... I was sceptical to say the least until I tried one, but with no base layer to trap at least some moisture close to the skin I find they're actually more comfortable in the conditions they work in than traditional layered approaches. The catch is the relative lack of flexibility if conditions change a great deal, though IME that's more of an issue with hillwalking than cycling. If I went out on the MTB today round the local woods and hills I'd wear the Special 6 and it would be no problem, but if I went out Munro bagging I'd quite possibly use clothing ranging from just a base layer on top (working hard uphill out of the wind) up to everything I had with me (stopping for a break in an exposed spot).

Layering is the benchmark because it works without special kit. It works even better with more specialised stuff, but there are times when non-standard specialised stuff works better still. Having a Buffalo is a nice extra option in that regard, but I wouldn't want to be using them exclusively for all outdoor stuff.

Pete.
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mattheus
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Re: Base Layers ... Much Difference Between Them

Postby mattheus » 24 Jun 2019, 12:36pm

Anyone know of THIN short-sleeve merino tops still in production? This is for HOT weather, I should stress :)

My favourite was a Planet-X one - think it claimed to be 100g/m2 weight. It was a good fit, with a proper drop-back :( Sadly like all their stuff it was a limited production run (i.e. supplier probably went bust :D ) All I can find via google is either synthetic/merino blends, or so-called "thin" which is actually 200g weight or more.


(I'm still wearing the Planet-x - it is torn to bits now. Still works quite well, but I cannot possibly let people see me without a jersey over it! )
Last edited by mattheus on 24 Jun 2019, 1:16pm, edited 1 time in total.

althebike
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Re: Base Layers ... Much Difference Between Them

Postby althebike » 24 Jun 2019, 1:07pm

I think a good base layer should either insulate or wick, better still do both. While you can get some of these properties in very cheap brands , it is likely to be "less so" I tend not to wear my sports direct stuff very often because they are not so comfortable , cold in breeze, clammy in heat. The last base layers I brought were compression vests, I did not realise this at the time, but I really dislike putting them on and taking them off, they are tight around the arms, so the good old fashion gets my thumbs up. I have just brought castello bib shorts, , they fit my hips and waist but are made for people with legs like pipe cleaners, they really grip my thighs tightly. The beanstalks that review cycling clothes usually lead me astray. :(
Old altura, and HH good , anything I have purchased recently..rubbish