Consumer Rights / Customer Service

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
Witterings
Posts: 276
Joined: 8 Jun 2018, 10:17am

Consumer Rights / Customer Service

Postby Witterings » 30 Jan 2019, 2:24pm

Just looking for other people's opinions as to what's right / wrong and a matter of principle as much as anything.

I bought a Cateye RM-1 Rear Saddle Mount Bracket from On Yer Bike https://www.onyerbike.com/ at a clearance price of £4.99 + postage, The part comes as a complete assembled unit as per the picture here
https://www.cateye.com/intl/products/parts/5446510/ .....
all you need to do is attach it to the saddle rails as per the instructions.

The part the light mounts onto ... the angle can be changed by moving a slider that locks it in place, tilting it up or down and then pushing the slider back across which catches on the "teeth" to stop it moving.

The very 1st time I used it which was 2 weeks after purchase I was cycling at the front "as per :) " and a friend screamed out from behind something about a light ... I thought he was saying his battery had gone and needed changing so I stopped a little way up and he came up behind me with my rear light in his hand saying it had fallen off.

When I got home I looked at it and discovered there's a bolt that goes through and holds "the barrel" of the rear section that tilts in place, this had obviously vibrated lose causing it to come undone and the rear section to fall off with my light attached to it and the slider had also fallen out so even if I just replaced the bolt it’d be unusable.

I've gone back the the seller and also to Zyrofisher the Cateye Distributor, they've said my contract is with Onyerbike so they've sent them a replacement part to them free of charge ..... the manager at Onyerbike says the item isn't faulty and is absolutely adamant that I have to pay the postage to get it sent from them to me.

There's also nothing in the instructions about checking the bolt to see if it's tight and as it's designed to be a moving part I didn't feel it was my responsibility check it was properly designed and to see what was holding it in place and don't think it unreasonable to expect it to be secure.
If I as a layperson was designing something like that I’d either use a locking nut or something with rivet type ends that couldn’t come undone.

Personally I consider it to be faulty and as such should either be refunded or replaced at no additional cost to myself as it's not designed to fall apart the very 1st time it's used and is within 30 days of purchase.

I've attached a picture so people can easily see what I mean but interested to see what other people's opinions are and if I should now have to pay the postage or if in your opinion it should be down to the shop?
Image Attachments
IMG_1780.jpg

fastpedaller
Posts: 1963
Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Consumer Rights / Customer Service

Postby fastpedaller » 30 Jan 2019, 3:01pm

Witterings wrote:There's also nothing in the instructions about checking the bolt to see if it's tight and as it's designed to be a moving part I didn't feel it was my responsibility check it was properly designed and to see what was holding it in place and don't think it unreasonable to expect it to be secure.
If I as a layperson was designing something like that I’d either use a locking nut or something with rivet type ends that couldn’t come undone.

Personally I consider it to be faulty and as such should either be refunded or replaced at no additional cost to myself as it's not designed to fall apart the very 1st time it's used and is within 30 days of purchase.

I've attached a picture so people can easily see what I mean but interested to see what other people's opinions are and if I should now have to pay the postage or if in your opinion it should be down to the shop?


Hmm - a tricky one. Won't zyrofisher send it directly to you? Maybe they have shares in Royal Mail :D , but it seems the obvious thing to do. Re your comment "as it's designed to be a moving part I didn't feel it was my responsibility check it was properly designed and to see what was holding it in place and don't think it unreasonable to expect it to be secure.
If I as a layperson was designing something like that I’d either use a locking nut or something with rivet type ends that couldn’t come undone
." I'm unsure if you spotted a problem (re not having a locknut or similar) when you fitted the item, or now know after the event. It's clear you know what's required, but that may be after asking others? I really think (morally) the manufacturer is liable as they haven't mentioned this in the fitting instructions. The law, however, probably says the retailer (even though they didn't make up the instructions). If the postage is only a couple of quid I'd just resolve it by paying, and I can see the supplier wouldn't want to suck it up either.

The Sale of Goods act is rather strange in this sort of situation (IMHO) to give an example...... We bought an electric hob for the kitchen. It stated a certain wire ABC123 had to be used (and good for 98%C) or the warranty was void. Electrician didn't have wire. I contacted local wholesaler - he didn't have wire). I contacted supplier (they know nothing of it, but asked manufacturer). Manufacturer said try B&Q (I kid ye not). Basically this wire couldn't be sourced anywhere in the Country. I again tried manuf, same answer (despite me telling them I couldn't get it anywhere suggested). I contacted Trading Standards, who just told me the retailer was liable ... They got really snotty about it being a purchase 'off the internet' and obviously had a thing about it. Long story, but TS sided with the manufacturer, but my stance was The manufacturer says this wire is required for safety reasons, presumably they've done testing on this,and the retailer does't have such info. I (or anyone) can't source the wire, so it should come with the appliance. This is just a warranty 'get out cause' TS said You can get it from this wholesaler in Kings lynn (I couldn't - when I rang him he said "it's the nearest 94%, but not the temp they are quoting, and you have to buy 300m of it!"). This took 6 months to resolve, and my faith in TS is nil. Oh, I got 1m of it from the manufacturer, but they wouldn't pay for it to be fitted! There could be thousands of these about to catch fire in the Country!

Witterings
Posts: 276
Joined: 8 Jun 2018, 10:17am

Re: Consumer Rights / Customer Service

Postby Witterings » 30 Jan 2019, 3:36pm

fastpedaller wrote:Hmm - a tricky one. Won't zyrofisher send it directly to you? Maybe they have shares in Royal Mail :D , but it seems the obvious thing to do. Re your comment "as it's designed to be a moving part I didn't feel it was my responsibility check it was properly designed and to see what was holding it in place and don't think it unreasonable to expect it to be secure.
If I as a layperson was designing something like that I’d either use a locking nut or something with rivet type ends that couldn’t come undone
." I'm unsure if you spotted a problem (re not having a locknut or similar) when you fitted the item, or now know after the event. It's clear you know what's required, but that may be after asking others? I really think (morally) the manufacturer is liable as they haven't mentioned this in the fitting instructions. The law, however, probably says the retailer (even though they didn't make up the instructions). If the postage is only a couple of quid I'd just resolve it by paying, and I can see the supplier wouldn't want to suck it up either.


I honestly didn't pick up on any potential problem nor feel the need to check how it was designed / manufactured when I was fitting the mount ... it was only on inspecting it after the event that it became very obvious what had happened and the reason it had fallen off as the nut was still in place ... my instant thought was why the heck didn't they use locking nuts but was 100% in hindsight.

Zyrofischer posting it straight to me would have been the simple answer, I did go back to them and they said everything gets loaded onto a container for the couriers and as it had already been done by the time the shop contacted them to ask if they'd send it directly it now couldn't be unloaded and it wouldn't be their normal process anyway.

The other obvious resolution as you say is I pay the postage and I can see why the shop doesn't want to "suck up the cost" on a low value discounted item ... the flip side why should I "suck up the cost" when I've already paid the postage once for an issue that I don't believe should have happened if it was correctly designed and assembled in the 1st instance.

Absolutely non of this is having a beef at you by the way fastpedaller and I appreciate your input ... it's just giving more info about my reluctance as customer service seems to be becoming more take it or leave and shops trying to shirk their legal responsibility.

fastpedaller
Posts: 1963
Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Consumer Rights / Customer Service

Postby fastpedaller » 30 Jan 2019, 4:11pm

Witterings wrote:Absolutely non of this is having a beef at you by the way fastpedaller and I appreciate your input ... it's just giving more info about my reluctance as customer service seems to be becoming more take it or leave and shops trying to shirk their legal responsibility.

That's the bit I find strange - that it's the retailers legal responsibility (rather than the manufacturer's). The retailer has no control over the testing, instructions enclosed or the factory assembly of the item - To me it's a odd (and unjust) legal situation.

thirdcrank
Posts: 28648
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Consumer Rights / Customer Service

Postby thirdcrank » 30 Jan 2019, 7:55pm

Your rights are definitely with the retailer and the usual problem is that retailers try to refer customers to the distributor or manufacturer.

Having said that, I think the hard part here is demonstrating that the goods were defective. Unless you can either point to a fault of manufacture ie you got a duff one or to an obvious fault in the design ie the mounting was never going to be adequate (perhaps supported by reports of other customers having similar failures ) then I think you are stuck with the implication that you didn't fit it correctly.

Customer service is a policy matter for individual companies although promises like "no quibble returns" can increase your rights under the contract of sale. Your statutory rights cannot be reduced by guarantees or disclaimers, which is why most include that point.

mmcnay
Posts: 27
Joined: 15 Aug 2017, 10:10am

Re: Consumer Rights / Customer Service

Postby mmcnay » 30 Jan 2019, 8:59pm

I had a similar problem with something valued at £20. I posted it back, paying for postage about £1.50. I asked for the postage refunded. The guy sent the goods back, repaired, but doesn't answer emails asking for my postage refunded. I had to think about the time I was spending hassling the guy, and the cost. In the end I emailed, keep the £1.50, but you won't see another penny of mine.
It gave me £1.50s worth of satisfaction.

Syd
Posts: 70
Joined: 23 Sep 2018, 2:27pm

Re: Consumer Rights / Customer Service

Postby Syd » 30 Jan 2019, 9:39pm

On yer bike have never had a penny from me after falling to honour the warranty on a wheelset which snapped a spoke nipple third ride out. They stated is wasn’t covered by warranty unless I could prove 100% manufacturer fault. Unusually the manufacturer was happyhelp and offered to take them back and rebuild them if I paid carriage both ways! £38 in total.

A local wheel builder rebuilt both with brass nipples (was a commuter wheelset to the extra few grammes weren’t an issue) for £15. When I picked them up he commented that they’d not been built properly in the first place as none of the spokes were pulled far enough into the nipples. I sent a copy of a report he created to the manufacturer and they refunded me my £15.

Proof is the key.

Witterings
Posts: 276
Joined: 8 Jun 2018, 10:17am

Re: Consumer Rights / Customer Service

Postby Witterings » 30 Jan 2019, 11:48pm

thirdcrank wrote:Your rights are definitely with the retailer and the usual problem is that retailers try to refer customers to the distributor or manufacturer.


This is true ... but the distributor has sent out a replacement to the retailer free of charge which says they're accepting the responsibility (in other words it may have been faulty) and doing everything they should to honor their obligations ... its the retailer that's saying I have to pay the additional postage to get it sent to me.

Interesting that Syd had a similar experience ... mmcnay ... you mention your experience ... was it with the same company???

In case people think I'm just a complainer ... I'm not .. there are clear legal guidelines about customer returns but that aside I thought I'd post this link to a thread I posted 10 days or so ago just to demonstrate how "fair" I think I am generally ... it's very rare people take the time to praise what should really be an everyday level of customer service.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=127249

PH
Posts: 7124
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
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Re: Consumer Rights / Customer Service

Postby PH » 31 Jan 2019, 1:14am

Witterings wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:Your rights are definitely with the retailer and the usual problem is that retailers try to refer customers to the distributor or manufacturer.


This is true ... but the distributor has sent out a replacement to the retailer free of charge which says they're accepting the responsibility (in other words it may have been faulty) and doing everything they should to honor their obligations ... its the retailer that's saying I have to pay the additional postage to get it sent to me.

seems a bit petty of them not to just stick it in the post. But your contract is solely with the retailer, anything that goes on between them and the manufacturer is their business. You would expect the retailer to honour their contract with you even if the manufacturer didn't do so with them and although there seems no reason not to, I believe it to be the same the other way round.

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hondated
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Joined: 27 Mar 2008, 7:59am
Location: Eastbourne

Re: Consumer Rights / Customer Service

Postby hondated » 31 Jan 2019, 3:23pm

Take some comfort from knowing that because of what has happened to you and the way you have been treated I will not now be buying anything from Onyerbike. What a terrible customer service they are offering.

A better example would be the company I purchased a replacement mobile phone battery from. Had it for two months and it went dead.So I contacted the company in Germany and they asked me for particular details of my phone and once they had them they responded by informing me that they have sent a replacement in the post.
Great service and if I should ever need another one guess who I will be buying it from !

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Cunobelin
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Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Consumer Rights / Customer Service

Postby Cunobelin » 31 Jan 2019, 4:49pm

fastpedaller wrote:
Witterings wrote:Absolutely non of this is having a beef at you by the way fastpedaller and I appreciate your input ... it's just giving more info about my reluctance as customer service seems to be becoming more take it or leave and shops trying to shirk their legal responsibility.

That's the bit I find strange - that it's the retailers legal responsibility (rather than the manufacturer's). The retailer has no control over the testing, instructions enclosed or the factory assembly of the item - To me it's a odd (and unjust) legal situation.



I could be wrong, but my understanding is that it concerns the contracts

If yo buy from a retailer then your contract is with them.... and hence the responsibility to deal with the issue

There is a secondary contract between the retailer and supplier(let’s stop the chain there?)

The retailer then takes the matter up with the supplier

hamster
Posts: 3102
Joined: 2 Feb 2007, 12:42pm

Re: Consumer Rights / Customer Service

Postby hamster » 31 Jan 2019, 6:03pm

You are right, it's the Sale of Goods Act. Your contract is with the retailer, theirs (upstream) is with the importer etc.

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fossala
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Joined: 21 May 2013, 8:29am

Re: Consumer Rights / Customer Service

Postby fossala » 31 Jan 2019, 6:14pm

I use the same light bracket. I would side with user error as the user should check bolts are tight upon installation.

I've went out and checked mine to see how much movement there would be with a light mounted but the bolt not tight, it's quite a bit. I honestly can't see how you installed it, put a light on and still didn't realize it was loose.

I'd say pay the £2 and be happy you're not having to dig around spare boxes trying to find a bot that fits.

iandusud
Posts: 191
Joined: 26 Mar 2018, 1:35pm

Re: Consumer Rights / Customer Service

Postby iandusud » 31 Jan 2019, 6:19pm

What I don't understand here, as someone who has run a retail bike shop, is why On Yer Bike, for the sake of a stamp, didn't just send the part in the hope that the customer would be pleased with good service and buy from them again, and maybe even recommend them to his friends as a good shop to deal with. On the other hand they can respond as they have in the sure and certain knowledge that the customer won't be buying anything from them again and may well tell others of his experience.

I just don't get it.

Witterings
Posts: 276
Joined: 8 Jun 2018, 10:17am

Re: Consumer Rights / Customer Service

Postby Witterings » 31 Jan 2019, 6:54pm

iandusud wrote:What I don't understand here, as someone who has run a retail bike shop, is why On Yer Bike, for the sake of a stamp, didn't just send the part in the hope that the customer would be pleased with good service and buy from them again, and maybe even recommend them to his friends as a good shop to deal with. On the other hand they can respond as they have in the sure and certain knowledge that the customer won't be buying anything from them again and may well tell others of his experience.

I just don't get it.


Exactly my thoughts and the fact they're not willing to do so speaks volumes and says an awful lot about them and their way of dealing with things .... must admit I'm glad it's a mount that's only worth a few £'s and not a £3000 bike I'd bought from them and have a problem with.

I even said I'd buy a water bottle cage at retail price if the margin on that helped them to swallow the postage cost in an attempt to help them out .... I'll now buy the bottle cage elsewhere and happily pay the postage on top.

fossala wrote
I honestly can't see how you installed it, put a light on and still didn't realize it was loose.
.

It wasn't lose it felt secure, if it had of been lose I probably would have investigated a bit further and maybe discovered there was a potential problem.