The utility cyclist wrote:........ATEOTD, it's a few quid spread out over a couple of years, why worry about it so much, maybe think of going back to 5 speed at the back of the extra cash is hurting you so much?
Is there really any need for this kind of personal comment?
Personal, how, offering sound financial options (which isn't even directed at anyone in particular if you'd bothered to read properly) to save some money over more expensive groups whilst still having a functional drivetrain is hardly being personal even if it was directed at someone (which it clearly wasn't), you need to get a sense of perspective and stop trolling forum members to get a rise.
The utility cyclist wrote:........ATEOTD, it's a few quid spread out over a couple of years, why worry about it so much, maybe think of going back to 5 speed at the back of the extra cash is hurting you so much?
Is there really any need for this kind of personal comment?
Personal, how, offering sound financial options (which isn't even directed at anyone in particular if you'd bothered to read properly) to save some money over more expensive groups whilst still having a functional drivetrain is hardly being personal even if it was directed at someone (which it clearly wasn't), you need to get a sense of perspective and stop trolling forum members to get a rise.
I did read it properly thank you and I've not changed my mind.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
the pricing of parts is influenced by what they cost to make and what they think they can get away with charging for them. Older parts and designs have their one-off costs (design, prototyping, marketing, tooling etc) amortised and newer parts don't. Often manufacturers will carry on making some parts until the tooling is worn out and then they will stop because it isn't worth investing in replacement tooling for those parts any more.
Supply and demand influences prices too. Interestingly you can see this clearly in some parts more than others. For example you can still buy new 9s XT RDs even though they haven't been 'current' for about ten years now. They are also not noticeably inexpensive; folk still want them because the 'newer stuff' doesn't do the same job. Weirdly, when 9s was only few years old, first generation 9s XT mechs were sold off at half price when the newer ones came out; shimano believed (quite wrongly) that folk ought to want the new 'low normal' stuff and that the high normal stuff ought to be got rid of cheap. [I bought quite a few high normal RDs just then!].
When it comes to running different kit for different purposes there are various conflicting needs depending on what you are doing. In extremis you can take two disparate -but quite common- sample usages; a) Ride to work/Training (RT) and b) Sunday Afternoon/Weekend Warrior (WW)
For RT needs the #1 priority is that it should be reliable; it will get used in all weathers, during hours of darkness, and any time spent of maintenance may be begrudged. You may not need a super-wide range of closely spaced gears and indeed you would be normally be happy to trade some 'performance' away in return for increased reliability and/or reduced maintenance. Since 'performance' isn't a priority per se, and this stuff wears out regardless , low consumables costs seem attractive; there literally is no point in having eleven sprockets if all you do is wear out the middle four....
For WW needs 'performance' is perceived as a much higher priority. You still need good reliability but this machine won't be used much (if at all) in foul weather and if it breaks occasionally it is liable to be forgiven. Being a cherished item it will be more likely to be cossetted and maintained properly, and indeed may have been a 'money no object' purchase in its day. Absolute levels of durability and reliability which are significantly lower than in the RT use may be tolerated.
Per mile ridden you might spend a lot more time and money on the WW use than the RT use. WW consumables are liable to be of cutting edge design (read expensive) when new and rare (and therefore potentially also expensive) if the bike is 'old'. WW bikes are more likely to be replaced with a new one because the newer one is 'new' than because the previous one is worn out or broken. I find this somewhat ironic because most WW riders would go at almost exactly the same speed on any first class racing machine built in the last fifty years or so. It is my belief that in most cases 'performance' is just an excuse to buy new baubles, and that this is 'justified' by legions of scribes, part of a whole industry which is increasingly built around the idea of built-in obsolescence, dressed up as something else, of course. You can see exactly the same thing in any 'hobby sphere' be it cars, hi-fi, gadgets, motorcycles, even fishing, you name it.
The idea that a new transmission might last a year or two (and therefore be of relatively insignificant cost in the grand scheme of things) is a reasonable one in the case of WW type use. However in RT use it is somewhat more of an issue. If you ride in all weathers, ride hard and ride far you can get through several transmission sets in a year, and costs are not insignificant. Quite a lot of kit that fares well enough in WW use simply isn't up to RT treatment and/or becomes much more maintenance-intensive.
Most of us have needs that don't fall squarely in either RT or WW camps, and there may be other factors at work (such as load carrying, foldability, riding offroad, potential theft risk etc) so any one bike is liable to be something of a compromise, and different folk of course make different choices. I've nearly always had more than one bike on the go, so each one can be pretty well suited to the task in hand. One of the modern tropes which I find absolutely baffling is the RT rider who insists on using a WW type machine for this task and is obsessed with his strava times etc as they ride to and from work; IME you can 'save' 30s on a typical commute but saddle yourself with a lot more maintenance and expense this way. If the same bike is used for WW duties too it soon becomes tatty and potentially unreliable even with fairly rigorous maintenance....
Anyway that is my two-penneth. Horses for courses and all that
philvantwo wrote:I must say there are a lot of things said on this forum that are bang out of order. I'm on two shaving forums and there's nothing at all like this on either of them. The only two people whose posts I make a point of reading are Mick F and Brucey. They never get involved in this tit for tat sarcasm.
That's because shaving forums are frequented by gentlemen.
I was surprised and pleased to find that shaving fora exist, there are beard fora too, I shall be having a gander at the latter, my beard is nearly 40 years old Do such fora have 'tea shops' where one may talk about cycling?
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon, PoB, 30120 Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott We love safety cameras, we hate bullies
philvantwo wrote:I must say there are a lot of things said on this forum that are bang out of order. I'm on two shaving forums and there's nothing at all like this on either of them. The only two people whose posts I make a point of reading are Mick F and Brucey. They never get involved in this tit for tat sarcasm.
That's because shaving forums are frequented by gentlemen.
I was surprised and pleased to find that shaving fora exist, there are beard fora too, I shall be having a gander at the latter, my beard is nearly 40 years old Do such fora have 'tea shops' where one may talk about cycling?
Talking of shaving, I thought your signature said ". ...better on a Gillette"
gregoryoftours wrote:That's because shaving forums are frequented by gentlemen.
I was surprised and pleased to find that shaving fora exist, there are beard fora too, I shall be having a gander at the latter, my beard is nearly 40 years old Do such fora have 'tea shops' where one may talk about cycling?
Talking of shaving, I thought your signature said ". ...better on a Gillette"
Fortunately the spell corrector did not intervene, Gillott - Gillette Could one cycle on a razor blade? .. * A S Gillott, famous London frame builder
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon, PoB, 30120 Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott We love safety cameras, we hate bullies
I live on fairly modest means*, yet cycling is something I can easily afford not to compromise on. I'll chose what I think will best suite my needs and desires, find where it's available at best value, then work out how to raise the cash to buy it. If I wanted 11 speed I'd buy 11 speed and couldn't care less that something I didn't want was cheaper. IMO the best value comes from buying what you're likely to get the best use from and you can define what that is for yourself, it could be anything from the pleasure of looking at it to the long term durability.
* Modest by the standards of the society I live in, I'm aware how rich I am in comparison with others.
philvantwo wrote:I must say there are a lot of things said on this forum that are bang out of order. I'm on two shaving forums and there's nothing at all like this on either of them. The only two people whose posts I make a point of reading are Mick F and Brucey. They never get involved in this tit for tat sarcasm.
philvantwo wrote:I must say there are a lot of things said on this forum that are bang out of order. I'm on two shaving forums and there's nothing at all like this on either of them. The only two people whose posts I make a point of reading are Mick F and Brucey. They never get involved in this tit for tat sarcasm.
I would add Colin531 to these two gentlemen!
+1 And i should add that i find this place very helpful with very little game playing. Maybe because of a certain age profile and folk being beyond all that stuff.
As for shaving, my last one was late 2015 and my last haircut was the summer of that year. By mid 2016 I had totally smooth skin over my whole body with no hair follicles anywhere. Not complaining in the slightest. I absolutely love it!
I was a member of the Alopecia Forum, but it's gone now. Probably they couldn't stand my wittering on about how good Alopecia Universalis is. Most folk are distraught about it and need support. https://www.alopecia.org.uk
PS: This is all very much off-topic!
I have a bike with a 10sp Triple plus a Sturmey Archer 3sp ............. making 90 ratios to chose from. Beat that!
Mick F you could have 93 ratios!! As for shaving I have a shave every day, Parker 99r safety razor and currently trying Raperia platinum blades from Russia with Derby lavender shaving cream! Normally use Derby Extra blades which work out at 6p each and one lasts me a week!!
Mick F wrote: .......I have a bike with a 10sp Triple plus a Sturmey Archer 3sp ............. making 90 ratios to chose from. Beat that!
I have two bikes with 18ratios(2x9 ranging from 20" to 79")I use 17 of them and have a ratio for ever occasion I also have an MTB with 30ratios(3x10 ranging from 18" to 106")but only need 20 of them(18" to 79")leaving the outer ring redundant
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
philvantwo wrote:Mick F you could have 93 ratios!!
Three chainrings, ten sprockets = 30sp Yes, I know that there will be overlaps and "forbidden" gears, but the principle remains.
Combined with a 3sp hub means I can have the 30sp system in three speed rear axle, meaning 30 X 3 = 90. The combinations in blue are identical, so strictly, it's a Moulton TSR 82, but if you can have a 10x3 = 30, I can have a 3x10x3 = 90.
Mick F wrote:I have a bike with a 10sp Triple plus a Sturmey Archer 3sp ............. making 90 ratios to chose from. Beat that!
You beat me there ........ Twin chainrings on a Schlumpf HSD and a Rohloff so only 2*2*14 for 56 gears here. That gives me 24 unique gears for a 9.6" - 178" range ........
