Relative weights of Spa touring and Audax bikes with and without discs

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
landsurfer
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Re: Relative weights of Spa touring and Audax bikes with and without discs

Postby landsurfer » 27 Mar 2019, 11:16pm

reohn2 wrote:
landsurfer wrote: .... common sense isn't very common ....

Remind me how many disc braked bikes you've owned and how many thousands of miles you've ridden on them?


Common sense isn't directly related to cycling miles.
Unless you have written a paper on the "disc braked milage that cyclists have ridden while being sensible" ...?!
Suspect your having a senior moment, "disc braked bikes you've owned and how many thousands of miles you've ridden on them" does not have a direct correlation to common sense. I suspect.
:)
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reohn2
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Re: Relative weights of Spa touring and Audax bikes with and without discs

Postby reohn2 » 27 Mar 2019, 11:25pm

landsurfer wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
landsurfer wrote: .... common sense isn't very common ....

Remind me how many disc braked bikes you've owned and how many thousands of miles you've ridden on them?


Common sense isn't directly related to cycling miles.
Unless you have written a paper on the "disc braked milage that cyclists have ridden while being sensible" ...?!
Suspect your having a senior moment, "disc braked bikes you've owned and how many thousands of miles you've ridden on them" does not have a direct correlation to common sense. I suspect.
:)


I'll ask again, how many thousands of miles have you ridden and what kind of experience you have of bicycle disc brakes that you can make a judgement on my experience?
It's not a hard question and the answer is commonly known as the experience of life,in this case bicycle disc brake life.
The inexperienced know nowt,because there's no substitute for experience.
So come back when you've done the miles and you'll then have the experience and knowledge you're currently lacking.
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Samuel D
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Re: Relative weights of Spa touring and Audax bikes with and without discs

Postby Samuel D » 28 Mar 2019, 12:17am

Light weight does not have the cachet it once did. That is something to be glad about, because physics says weight didn’t deserve the emphasis it was given.

Of course the ‘superbike’ category of road bikes (priced like BMW motorbikes) includes fantastically light machines. But generally road bikes are sold more on aerodynamics than weight these days. And with road racing diminishing in reach and influence among cycling enthusiasts anyway, heavier bicycles are grabbing market share. A Specialized Sequoia Elite is pushing two grand and weighs 12 kg.

There is a weight penalty for disc brakes, but that hasn’t stopped plenty of riders from making disc brakes a non-negotiable requirement on their next bike. Spa is responding to that quite sudden demand.

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horizon
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Re: Relative weights of Spa touring and Audax bikes with and without discs

Postby horizon » 28 Mar 2019, 12:21am

reohn2 wrote:
Apologies to Horizon for the disc brake thread drift


It was a risk I was aware of. :D

But it has helped in my seeing more potential for load lugging with the Aubisque. I've said before that my Sardar is disc compliant (it has cantis ATM) but I don't have any problems with that. And indeed as Brucey mentioned above, a disc fork is a strong fork so I was reassured when I loaded the Sardar heavily at the front for a camping trip.

One thread drift that I had expected was the total weight issue and I find it quite curious that this particular Holy Grail hasn't surfaced in the way it might have done (unless of course the weight- obsessives are keeping quiet while they enjoy their disc brakes :wink: ).

Update: my post and SamuelD's crossed in the post and he makes the same point but better than I did. He also has his finger more on the pulse more than I do.
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Re: Relative weights of Spa touring and Audax bikes with and without discs

Postby slowster » 29 Mar 2019, 12:11pm

531colin wrote:As a septuagenerian I wasn't looking for the task of teaching myself about disc brakes. But the Elan just rides so nicely, I had to have one.
Turns out that cable disc brakes are nothing to be alarmed about ....I have BB7 mountain pull, as I don't use STIs....excellent brakes, and so far very easy to live with; about all I've done so far is tinker with the big friendly red plastic pad adjusters so I don't get the pad brushing the disc, but i do get the "bite point" I want.

Colin, the Wayfarer can take either rim brakes or discs, and given your experience of discs on the Elan, I would be very interested to know which type of brake you would choose for yourself if you were to replace your Ti Roughstuff with a Wayfarer.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Relative weights of Spa touring and Audax bikes with and without discs

Postby The utility cyclist » 29 Mar 2019, 12:45pm

reohn2 wrote:
Brucey wrote:.

If one started with a lighter frameset, and used lightweight parts where possible, I think a target weight of well under 11kg isn't an unreasonable expectation for an audax type machine, even with SA drum brakes fitted. The fact that virtually no-one does this is testament to the success of various marketing efforts elsewhere and pervading 'groupthink' amongst cyclists, perhaps?

cheers

Or that discs are even lighter still than drums,and that caliper brakes are lighter again,the downside of calipers being they don't stop as well in the wet and the wear out rims at an alarming rate if ridden in wet and mucky conditions.
If someone wanted a really light Audax bike a Spa Elan with a CF fork takes some beating IMO,unless you want to get into race bike weights.

Given even the pros manage to stop/slow from far higher speeds than us in the wet and poor conditions I'd say that your're generalising massively, I've never not had enough braking in the wet on rim brakes, only people who don't maintain their brakes, use the cheapest of the cheap pads or even simply go too fast for their ability or are simply really bad at reading the road experience poor/not enough braking in the wet.

As for wearing out rims at an alarming rate, what rate is that?
My daily bike had a second hand (though in excellent condition) MA2/sansin front wheel on it for 6 years before it was put too far out of true to be saved when I was sideswiped but the braking surface had plenty of life left in it, the rear has been a well used second hand open 4 ceramic since the last ceramic wheel which was bust some 7 years or so when I was rear ended in a hit and run. Further back I had Open pro on Tiagra on my Ridgeback Day02 that did touring/commuting/utility/quick blasts and they went okay for circa 6 years and were second hand with the bike when I bought it and I sold them on with the frame so still had yet more to give.

My experience is not of 'alarming' wear rates on rims even in the foulest of conditions which isn't all that often for the vast majority of people over the UK as a whole. Sure some of the North West, Scotland, N. Ireland, Wales can be quite a bit soggier than other parts but I'm not seeing this wear rate you speak of from other riders nor from myself and I ride all year round.

Sure, someone who rides hard and continually brakes late, has a stop start journey over say 10 miles each way, never cleans their rims and maybe use cheapo rims that are shall we say are made of swiss cheese, will experience more wear than someone who rides fewer miles, less stop start and who plans ahead so they're not slamming on all the time.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Relative weights of Spa touring and Audax bikes with and without discs

Postby The utility cyclist » 29 Mar 2019, 1:30pm

Samuel D wrote:Light weight does not have the cachet it once did. That is something to be glad about, because physics says weight didn’t deserve the emphasis it was given.

Of course the ‘superbike’ category of road bikes (priced like BMW motorbikes) includes fantastically light machines. But generally road bikes are sold more on aerodynamics than weight these days. And with road racing diminishing in reach and influence among cycling enthusiasts anyway, heavier bicycles are grabbing market share. A Specialized Sequoia Elite is pushing two grand and weighs 12 kg.

There is a weight penalty for disc brakes, but that hasn’t stopped plenty of riders from making disc brakes a non-negotiable requirement on their next bike. Spa is responding to that quite sudden demand.

Part of that is down to the inflexible UCI 6.8kg lower weight limit, part of it is that it starts to get expensive to shave the weight as you get below 6.8kg. You can build a very light bike for not a lot of money if you shop around, Scott CR1 SL in a 61cm I got down to 6.3kg (incl pedals) with Campag Bora carbon tubs and some other carbon goodies but cost less than £2k, but to shave another kg means delving into really high end carbon frames and wheels.
Prices of fairly middling bikes do seem to have gone upwards in the last 6-7 years, that Sequoia has got to be a fat bloater and the position of the rack mounts is typical of some frames now, the 2016 model was £1500 with 105, that's some price jump!

When I bought my Specialized Globe Elite (basically the pro but next down level spec) 6.5 years ago and built it up into a do anything drop bar bike, it came in at under 10kg including guards and rack, ELITE in the lateish 00s got you carbon seat stays and carbon seatpost, the Globe Pro with XT and carbon bars was only £800 RRP in 2007, it was an utterly ridiculous bargain at that but Evans were selling them for £550 at one point :shock:

Since discs have come on the scene for road and 'gravel' bikes, the prices have gone up as well as the weight, add in downgrading of component level at the same time and it's just worse value all round for a lot of modern offerings.
I'm just glad I bought all the frames and bits I need to see me through at least another 20 years without even remotely considering discs.

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Re: Relative weights of Spa touring and Audax bikes with and without discs

Postby thelawnet » 29 Mar 2019, 2:21pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
Samuel D wrote:Light weight does not have the cachet it once did. That is something to be glad about, because physics says weight didn’t deserve the emphasis it was given.

Of course the ‘superbike’ category of road bikes (priced like BMW motorbikes) includes fantastically light machines. But generally road bikes are sold more on aerodynamics than weight these days. And with road racing diminishing in reach and influence among cycling enthusiasts anyway, heavier bicycles are grabbing market share. A Specialized Sequoia Elite is pushing two grand and weighs 12 kg.

There is a weight penalty for disc brakes, but that hasn’t stopped plenty of riders from making disc brakes a non-negotiable requirement on their next bike. Spa is responding to that quite sudden demand.


Prices of fairly middling bikes do seem to have gone upwards in the last 6-7 years, that Sequoia has got to be a fat bloater and the position of the rack mounts is typical of some frames now, the 2016 model was £1500 with 105, that's some price jump!

When I bought my Specialized Globe Elite (basically the pro but next down level spec) 6.5 years ago and built it up into a do anything drop bar bike, it came in at under 10kg including guards and rack, ELITE in the lateish 00s got you carbon seat stays and carbon seatpost, the Globe Pro with XT and carbon bars was only £800 RRP in 2007, it was an utterly ridiculous bargain at that but Evans were selling them for £550 at one point :shock:

Since discs have come on the scene for road and 'gravel' bikes, the prices have gone up as well as the weight, add in downgrading of component level at the same time and it's just worse value all round for a lot of modern offerings.
I'm just glad I bought all the frames and bits I need to see me through at least another 20 years without even remotely considering discs.


I think you might have missed all of the points?

The Sequioa Elite (£1850, which is not that far from £1500) is a steel frame. It doesn't make sense to compare it with the Globe, which is alloy. And it has heavier wheels - it's not sold by the kilo, it's sold based on different factors, such as the hydraulic STIs.

You can get rather a nice mountain bike with hydraulic brakes for around £500 after discounts

https://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/ ... -22-frames

And you can buy a <9kg 105 road bike for under £680.

But if you want to tick the expensive buzzwords such as '1x', 'Gravel', and so on, you will pay more....

reohn2
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Re: Relative weights of Spa touring and Audax bikes with and without discs

Postby reohn2 » 29 Mar 2019, 2:47pm

The utility cyclist wrote:Given even the pros manage to stop/slow from far higher speeds than us in the wet and poor conditions I'd say that your're generalising massively, I've never not had enough braking in the wet on rim brakes, only people who don't maintain their brakes, use the cheapest of the cheap pads or even simply go too fast for their ability or are simply really bad at reading the road experience poor/not enough braking in the wet.

As for wearing out rims at an alarming rate, what rate is that?
My daily bike had a second hand (though in excellent condition) MA2/sansin front wheel on it for 6 years before it was put too far out of true to be saved when I was sideswiped but the braking surface had plenty of life left in it, the rear has been a well used second hand open 4 ceramic since the last ceramic wheel which was bust some 7 years or so when I was rear ended in a hit and run. Further back I had Open pro on Tiagra on my Ridgeback Day02 that did touring/commuting/utility/quick blasts and they went okay for circa 6 years and were second hand with the bike when I bought it and I sold them on with the frame so still had yet more to give.

My experience is not of 'alarming' wear rates on rims even in the foulest of conditions which isn't all that often for the vast majority of people over the UK as a whole. Sure some of the North West, Scotland, N. Ireland, Wales can be quite a bit soggier than other parts but I'm not seeing this wear rate you speak of from other riders nor from myself and I ride all year round.

Sure, someone who rides hard and continually brakes late, has a stop start journey over say 10 miles each way, never cleans their rims and maybe use cheapo rims that are shall we say are made of swiss cheese, will experience more wear than someone who rides fewer miles, less stop start and who plans ahead so they're not slamming on all the time.


We've been through this movie before ad nausium,but I'll answer anyway.
Braking in the wet with rim brakes can be hit and miss until the rim has been cleared of water,I've had scary moments with rim brakes in adverse conditions and I'm not the type who uses cheap pads or doesn't maintain my brakes,and I have the utmost respect for wet conditions as well as having 50+ years of riding experience.
Rims in the gritstone areas I cycle in wet weather can be heard grinding their way through rims with bits of abrasive stone embedding into the brake pads,especially on the mucky back lanes with fields wash off,or on towpaths and bridleways.
You don't need to ride hard around here in adverse conditions to wear rims down PDQ.

The plusses for discs IME are,a)consistent and predictive braking in all weathers,b)no rim wear,c)longer pad life,d)a cleaner bike without the grey sludge on wheels and frame.
As someone those ridden caliper brakes single and dual pivot,canti's,V's and mechanical discs(don't see a need for hydros),discs win every time.
So no I don't agree with you for reasons given above.
Anyway how much experience of disc brakes such as BB7's or Hydro's FTM have had that you opinion is against them?
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geocycle
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Re: Relative weights of Spa touring and Audax bikes with and without discs

Postby geocycle » 29 Mar 2019, 4:21pm

I'm prepared to accept that disc brakes are more effective in many if not all situations. But for me V brakes have been excellent on my Thorn. I'm less convinced about the cantis on my Spa audax although tweaking has improved them and they are now good enough.

With hindsight I could have paid more for a disc model and taken the 400-500g weight hit (according to Spa) to get better braking but....

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Re: Relative weights of Spa touring and Audax bikes with and without discs

Postby Brucey » 29 Mar 2019, 4:38pm

reohn2 wrote:….The plusses for discs IME are,a)consistent and predictive braking......


I don't think that is quite what you mean, is it?

Anyway if you mean 'predictable' then I disagree; some (not uncommon) combinations of disc and pad, when wet, result in the worst initial bite of any modern brake system I have used. Bad enough to at least double your stopping distance. Absolutely no good for urban use, when you may need to stop at any time.

There are very many ways that disc brakes go wrong, and most of them seem to be the kinds of things that catch normal people out quite easily. The wear life of most disc brake pads (in wet/muddy conditions when you really need them) is frankly pathetic. More wear-resistant pads have various features that mean that they are not suitable for every application.


Rim brakes wear at different speeds depending on use, soil type, and hillyness. FWIW I think that modern brake blocks work better, but are harder on rims. I also think that modern rims are mostly crap; in times past I never worried about wearing rims out on a road bike, not for decades, and I did many more miles in worse conditions then.

The conclusion I have come to is that;

1) for any kind of road cycling where I am remotely fussy about weight and/or how the bike rides, and/or being able to fix the bike easily, I shall continue to use rim brakes for as long as I can get half-decent rims.

2) If I want a brake that really will work consistently in all weathers and requires minimal maintenance, I shall use drum brakes, because these really do that, instead of just leading you on with a stream of half-truths and broken promises like disc brakes do... :roll:

3) I shall continue to use hydraulic disc brakes on some MTBs simply because they offer the best modulation, and the whole bike is high maintenance anyway, so the (usually unwelcome) extra burden of disc brake maintenance is but a drop in an ocean of spannerwork.

cheers
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reohn2
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Re: Relative weights of Spa touring and Audax bikes with and without discs

Postby reohn2 » 29 Mar 2019, 6:01pm

Brucey wrote:
reohn2 wrote:….The plusses for discs IME are,a)consistent and predictive braking......


I don't think that is quite what you mean, is it?

Yes it is what I mean,discs compared to rims brake are more predictable with better modulation than any rim brake IME.

Anyway if you mean 'predictable' then I disagree; some (not uncommon) combinations of disc and pad, when wet, result in the worst initial bite of any modern brake system I have used. Bad enough to at least double your stopping distance. Absolutely no good for urban use, when you may need to stop at any time

Sintered pads in BB7's are very good indeed last,and are predictably very good in all conditions.

There are very many ways that disc brakes go wrong, and most of them seem to be the kinds of things that catch normal people out quite easily. The wear life of most disc brake pads (in wet/muddy conditions when you really need them) is frankly pathetic. More wear-resistant pads have various features that mean that they are not suitable for every application
.
Not IME,read above for type of pad I use.
If you want 'patheic' life and performance from pads and rims keep on using rim brakes in adverse conditions.

Rim brakes wear at different speeds depending on use, soil type, and hillyness. FWIW I think that modern brake blocks work better, but are harder on rims. I also think that modern rims are mostly crap; in times past I never worried about wearing rims out on a road bike, not for decades, and I did many more miles in worse conditions then

I've no quarrel with that and it's whyTUC found his MA2 rim lasted,because it was decades old,modern rims don't last,
The conclusion I have come to is that;

1) for any kind of road cycling where I am remotely fussy about weight and/or how the bike rides, and/or being able to fix the bike easily, I shall continue to use rim brakes for as long as I can get half-decent rims

That's your prerogative,so long as I don't have to do the same :)
2) If I want a brake that really will work consistently in all weathers and requires minimal maintenance, I shall use drum brakes, because these really do that, instead of just leading you on with a stream of half-truths and broken promises like disc brakes do... :roll:

You were doing OK until the accusation of half truths and promises.
You can use whatever brake you want it matters not a jot to me.
I speak from my experience,ten years on the tandem without fault and 8 years on various bikes,all using the same BB7 mechanical disc brake, with a few months with Spyres which I swapped out for BB7's

3) I shall continue to use hydraulic disc brakes on some MTBs simply because they offer the best modulation, and the whole bike is high maintenance anyway, so the (usually unwelcome) extra burden of disc brake maintenance is but a drop in an ocean of spannerwork.

cheers

As I posted previously I've no need for hydro's because what I have stop me very well in all conditions and I have to physically adjust the pads so find it's a reminder of pad wear,something we've dicussed before,plus they can be stripped down roadside if needs be,which for a tourist is a significant and further plus.

All these points have been chewed over before and this debate stems from your praise of drums,which I have no quarrel with,but you also have a downer on discs whenever anyone brings up the subject which as posted previously is tiresome,and because of that I won't be entering into discussion on this thread on the subject again.
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Re: Relative weights of Spa touring and Audax bikes with and without discs

Postby philsknees » 29 Mar 2019, 6:21pm

Interesting thread, hope I'm not taking it further off at a tangent.
I'm generally quite happy with my canti brakes on my tourer now I've got the hang of adjusting them properly & have upgraded the blocks but do sometimes wish for better downhill braking when heavily loaded in wet conditions.
Now to the point: I'll probably keep things as they are until I have a real scare :shock: but am very curious as to why the rim front/disc rear brake combination isn't more regularly used on tourers. On the face of things it seems a logical way of retaining a less rigid fork for comfort while boosting the braking of a heavily loaded cycle.
The current Thorn Club Tour is the only model I've seen with this option. (I understand that a framebuilder could fit a rear disc mount to an existing touring frame at a reasonable cost (bar the respray!).)
I'd be interested to hear views on whether this specific combination could be a viable route to weight saving, ride comfort and efficient braking. Or does it just give the worst of both systems? I can see that adhesion of the rear tyre to the road may be a major limitation and also have reservations about the forces exerted on a none purpose designed disc-side chain/seat stay.

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Re: Relative weights of Spa touring and Audax bikes with and without discs

Postby Brucey » 29 Mar 2019, 8:24pm

reohn2 wrote:
Brucey wrote:
reohn2 wrote:….The plusses for discs IME are,a)consistent and predictive braking......


I don't think that is quite what you mean, is it?

Yes it is what I mean,discs compared to rims brake are more predictable


predictive braking is a thing and it is not the same as predictable braking.

...All these points have been chewed over before and this debate stems from your praise of drums,which I have no quarrel with,but you also have a downer on discs whenever anyone brings up the subject which as posted previously is tiresome,and because of that I won't be entering into discussion on this thread on the subject again.


all brakes, indeed all bikes, are a compromise, but there is precious little acknowledgement from some quarters that

a) disc brakes have any weaknesses whatsoever and
b) that disc brakes might vary considerably depending on which ones you use.

Which is "not at all helpful". In fact it is downright misleading.

In the general run of things the priorities in a bike ought to be

1) the frameset and
2) the wheelset and then
3) 'everything else'

Brakes have always been firmly in the 'everything else' category, but you wouldn't know that from the way some folk carry on; often their #1 must-have feature in a new bike is 'disc brakes' even though it might make their bike more expensive, more uncomfortable, heavier, less easy to maintain. Other brakes don't even get a moment's consideration in this daft 'cart-before-horse' purchase.... :roll:

If anything is 'tiresome' it is folk banging on about how wonderful disc brakes are. I've used them, lots, for decades; I presently own at least half a dozen different bikes with them fitted. I have also worked on many different installations. However I have never ridden a bike with disc brakes that couldn't have been made nicer to ride, lighter, easier to maintain and less expensive by using rim brakes, or easier to live with, with more consistent braking in the weather by using drum brakes. For a few purposes I'd choose disc brakes, but those would be greatly outnumbered by the applications in which I'd favour other types of brake.

FWIW some folk have a strong antipathy towards rim brakes these days. I have an idea that part of this is caused by their predilection for using 'factory wheelsets' (which is a highly infectious disease you catch from reading too many idiotic bicycle magazines); when the rims wear out on these (which they do all too soon for various reasons) these wheels are skip fodder. Heaven forbid that you should use some sensible wheels instead, which work just as well and can be rebuilt ad infinitum with new rims that cost £20 a go. Mind you, even that is getting more difficult now; modern rims are mostly crap whether they are attached to a daft wheelset or not..... :roll:

cheers
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Re: Relative weights of Spa touring and Audax bikes with and without discs

Postby 531colin » 29 Mar 2019, 9:58pm

slowster wrote:
531colin wrote:As a septuagenerian I wasn't looking for the task of teaching myself about disc brakes. But the Elan just rides so nicely, I had to have one.
Turns out that cable disc brakes are nothing to be alarmed about ....I have BB7 mountain pull, as I don't use STIs....excellent brakes, and so far very easy to live with; about all I've done so far is tinker with the big friendly red plastic pad adjusters so I don't get the pad brushing the disc, but i do get the "bite point" I want.

Colin, the Wayfarer can take either rim brakes or discs, and given your experience of discs on the Elan, I would be very interested to know which type of brake you would choose for yourself if you were to replace your Ti Roughstuff with a Wayfarer.

Rim brakes or discs on a bike which I use off road.....I'll have to think about that.....(not!)….
…..I've thought about it, and its discs....every day, all day long.
No build-up of mud and crud on the brake arms/pads....I don't really get build-up under the guards.*
No rim wear to worry about ...Nidderdale is sandstone/gritstone sort of stuff, the mud and sand is very abrasive; most of the Dales are limestone, which isn't so abrasive (but is slippy when smooth and wet), but the shooting tracks are made up with whatever comes to hand....old lead-mining spoil is common, and thats pretty abrasive. In the Lakes, I've taken a lot of wear off my rims in a few days roughstuff; again, it seems to be the tracks made up with stone that are the most abrasive.
No problem if I should happen to ding a rim....haven't done one in years, but I'm hitting much more stuff these days... :(
And, of course....brakes! I'm not going to say my discs are unaffected by wet, that would be silly. Up high, in conditions of cloud and driving drizzle, there is a definite delay while the brakes make all sorts of noises and dry out. But rim brakes are no good in cloud and driving drizzle.....and also compromised on tracks that are wet and muddy. If you seek out the tracks (and I do) you will often frequent wet and muddy tracks, whereas I don't actually go looking for driving drizzle days to be in cloud, that's something that just happens!
If you want a Wayfarer with Canti. studs, don't wait too long, because the second generation of Wayfarers will be disc only. (and also a touch longer than the first lot.) Spa's typical customer demographic is more the old club cyclist with long pockets and short arms than the youngster with a quick-draw credit card, but even at Spa disc brakes is what they want.
I have 2 bikes with carbide Grizzleys, the Spa Roughstuff and an old Orbit Romany, so I'm pretty well supplied ….they might just outlast me!

*actually, I did the other day....first step was a twig wedged across the mudguard stays by the mud-flap; a muddy stretch led to mud build-up between twig and guard, which self-cleared as soon as I removed the twig. However, I got home before I found the source of the "chuffing"...a perfect-sized stone perched on the V brake mount, cemented in place by a mud deposit, just brushed by the side of the tyre ....but not all the time, thats too easy.