How many spokes?
How many spokes?
Last year I bought a nearly-new (used once) Schmidt dynohub fitted into a 28-spoke front wheel from my LBS. I did a two-week trip through Brittany and across the Loire to Machecoul, loaded with panniers front and rear, though I kept the front ones light. In Morlaix, a spoke broke in the front wheel. I’m guessing 28 spokes will never be able to take much of a load. Or can I trust this wheel on my next trip?
Re: How many spokes?
I wouldn’t trust it if a spoke has already broken. Not without examining it and stress-relieving the spokes, anyway.
However, more details would be needed to judge whether the wheel should be kept or rebuilt. Your weight, the typical front load, the rim model, the type of spoke, and how the wheel was built (average spoke tension, tension consistency across the spokes, and whether the spokes were stress-relieved) would be a start.
The rim matters because the stiffer it is radially, the more spokes share the load at the contact patch, and therefore the less each spoke is compressed (loss of tension). It is that cyclical compression that causes fatigue. With a stiff enough rim you could more or less guarantee the spokes won’t break from fatigue, though that rim might be unusually heavy.
However, more details would be needed to judge whether the wheel should be kept or rebuilt. Your weight, the typical front load, the rim model, the type of spoke, and how the wheel was built (average spoke tension, tension consistency across the spokes, and whether the spokes were stress-relieved) would be a start.
The rim matters because the stiffer it is radially, the more spokes share the load at the contact patch, and therefore the less each spoke is compressed (loss of tension). It is that cyclical compression that causes fatigue. With a stiff enough rim you could more or less guarantee the spokes won’t break from fatigue, though that rim might be unusually heavy.
Re: How many spokes?
I would also like to hear opinions on spoke counts on wheels. Specifically for touring purposes when travelling light (<5kg equipment).
I have seen Shimano Dura Ace WH-7700 with only 16 spokes in both rear and front wheels (https://www.roadbikereview.com/product/wheels/wheelsets/shimano/wh-7700-dura-ace.html). Another thing about these is that the spokes go into the side of the rims in a paired "crossover" pattern.
What do you think about the durability of this wheelset for going on tour and in general? And how bad would it be if a spoke breaks on the road?
Sorry if this should be another thread; I figured it can be incorporated to the OP's question as it does represent the low-end extreme of the spoke count range.
Cheers,
Damjan
I have seen Shimano Dura Ace WH-7700 with only 16 spokes in both rear and front wheels (https://www.roadbikereview.com/product/wheels/wheelsets/shimano/wh-7700-dura-ace.html). Another thing about these is that the spokes go into the side of the rims in a paired "crossover" pattern.
What do you think about the durability of this wheelset for going on tour and in general? And how bad would it be if a spoke breaks on the road?
Sorry if this should be another thread; I figured it can be incorporated to the OP's question as it does represent the low-end extreme of the spoke count range.
Cheers,
Damjan
Re: How many spokes?
Those Dura-Ace wheels are designed for racing. Exact loading with ultralight touring depends on rider weight (and such wheels always quote a max rider weight). However I think the issues are:
1) whether it has fancy spokes which will require a large shop to source replacements (maybe even to order)
2) can a simple fix be done by the owner roadside
3) what is the advantage of touring with a racing wheel...why not a set of strong, non-exotic, easily-serviced wheels?
1) whether it has fancy spokes which will require a large shop to source replacements (maybe even to order)
2) can a simple fix be done by the owner roadside
3) what is the advantage of touring with a racing wheel...why not a set of strong, non-exotic, easily-serviced wheels?
Re: How many spokes?
Unless you’re planning an attack on the hour record on tour, more spokes have a negligible weight and drag penalty.
Those WH-7700 wheels were strange creatures. Despite a titanium cassette body and other silliness, they weighed around 1.8 kg. And the weight must have been unusually close to the periphery (where it counts double on acceleration) since the rim had to bridge large gaps between the few spokes that were paired to make matters worse. The spokes were laced to the opposite side of the rim for a good bracing angle. A broken spoke would mean calling a tow truck. If the proprietary spokes and nipples were ever widely available they aren’t today.
Looking at that wheel I think we have made some progress. Today’s high-end road wheels make smarter compromises than that.
Those WH-7700 wheels were strange creatures. Despite a titanium cassette body and other silliness, they weighed around 1.8 kg. And the weight must have been unusually close to the periphery (where it counts double on acceleration) since the rim had to bridge large gaps between the few spokes that were paired to make matters worse. The spokes were laced to the opposite side of the rim for a good bracing angle. A broken spoke would mean calling a tow truck. If the proprietary spokes and nipples were ever widely available they aren’t today.
Looking at that wheel I think we have made some progress. Today’s high-end road wheels make smarter compromises than that.
Re: How many spokes?
Those Dura-Ace wheels are designed for racing. Exact loading with ultralight touring depends on rider weight (and such wheels always quote a max rider weight). However I think the issues are:
1) whether it has fancy spokes which will require a large shop to source replacements (maybe even to order)
2) can a simple fix be done by the owner roadside
3) what is the advantage of touring with a racing wheel...why not a set of strong, non-exotic, easily-serviced wheels?
I don't think there are any major advantages besides minor weight reduction which isn't that important. I was just wondering about how reliable they would be on extensive touring. But yes, you pointed out my concerns exactly. Thanks.
Unless you’re planning an attack on the hour record on tour, more spokes have a negligible weight and drag penalty.
Those WH-7700 wheels were strange creatures. Despite a titanium cassette body and other silliness, they weighed around 1.8 kg. And the weight must have been unusually close to the periphery (where it counts double on acceleration) since the rim had to bridge large gaps between the few spokes that were paired to make matters worse. The spokes were laced to the opposite side of the rim for a good bracing angle. A broken spoke would mean calling a tow truck. If the proprietary spokes and nipples were ever widely available they aren’t today.
Looking at that wheel I think we have made some progress. Today’s high-end road wheels make smarter compromises than that.
Thanks for this. I figured I would have to swap them out for more reliable wheels for touring. My follow-up question is: would you just replace them altogether even for lighter purposes other than touring, e.g. commuting, 1-day rides, etc.?
Re: How many spokes?
FWIW when touring, 'tis best to err on the side of caution; more spokes, or a kind that are easy enough to obtain/replace are pretty much a no-brainer. If you have fewer spokes then -all things being equal- they see more stress, are more likely to break, and the wheel is liable to go further out of true when they do fail.
If you have a 28h front wheel in which one spoke has broken at a fairly low mileage, there is an outside chance that a spoke was genuinely defective, and that was why it broke, but the most likely thing is that wheel probably hasn't been stress-relieved correctly. I'd therefore stress-relieve the wheel now (properly...) and carry on with it, whilst acknowledging that there may be one or two spokes in it that are already cracked and will break now no matter what you do. This means if going touring, you should carry a few spare spokes and be prepared to fit them.
Wheelsets like WH-7700 would be very low on my list of 'wheels for touring'. They are race day wheels, pure and simple.
https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-WH-7700-R-1893D.pdf
They have some clever design features but they are not wheels I would plan to put a high mileage on. Oddly enough spokes are not one of the most worrysome parts of these wheels; IIRC the spokes are actually a fairly standard J bend spoke, but fitted with an eyelet at the head end, where they mount on the rim. The nipples are special and mount in the hub. Provided you can re-use the old nipple, turn it (you may need a special tool simply for good access, but a 4" adjustable could work) and retrieve the old eyelet (it will usually be rattling around inside the rim somewhere when you break a spoke at the head end) then fitting a replacement spoke isn't such a big deal.
IIRC there have been some nasty accidents involving these wheels; one thing that happens surprisingly often is that a brake block isn't adequately tightened, and moves. With these wheels fitted, and a brake block that has moved, the wheel can jam solid as soon as the brake is applied. Not good!
BTW the fewer spokes you have, the more flexible the wheel is liable to be. No-one has done any convincing measurements which quantify how much energy you might lose through wheel flex alone, but it won't be zero. Trivially, a lot of riders find themselves unable to ride out of the saddle on such wheelsets without the brakes rubbing; this will definitely slow you down, far more than you would ever expect to gain by having fewer spokes....
cheers
If you have a 28h front wheel in which one spoke has broken at a fairly low mileage, there is an outside chance that a spoke was genuinely defective, and that was why it broke, but the most likely thing is that wheel probably hasn't been stress-relieved correctly. I'd therefore stress-relieve the wheel now (properly...) and carry on with it, whilst acknowledging that there may be one or two spokes in it that are already cracked and will break now no matter what you do. This means if going touring, you should carry a few spare spokes and be prepared to fit them.
Wheelsets like WH-7700 would be very low on my list of 'wheels for touring'. They are race day wheels, pure and simple.
https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-WH-7700-R-1893D.pdf
They have some clever design features but they are not wheels I would plan to put a high mileage on. Oddly enough spokes are not one of the most worrysome parts of these wheels; IIRC the spokes are actually a fairly standard J bend spoke, but fitted with an eyelet at the head end, where they mount on the rim. The nipples are special and mount in the hub. Provided you can re-use the old nipple, turn it (you may need a special tool simply for good access, but a 4" adjustable could work) and retrieve the old eyelet (it will usually be rattling around inside the rim somewhere when you break a spoke at the head end) then fitting a replacement spoke isn't such a big deal.
IIRC there have been some nasty accidents involving these wheels; one thing that happens surprisingly often is that a brake block isn't adequately tightened, and moves. With these wheels fitted, and a brake block that has moved, the wheel can jam solid as soon as the brake is applied. Not good!
BTW the fewer spokes you have, the more flexible the wheel is liable to be. No-one has done any convincing measurements which quantify how much energy you might lose through wheel flex alone, but it won't be zero. Trivially, a lot of riders find themselves unable to ride out of the saddle on such wheelsets without the brakes rubbing; this will definitely slow you down, far more than you would ever expect to gain by having fewer spokes....
cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: How many spokes?
If the user is not heavy, a well built 28 spoke wheel might be okay for touring. Not ideal, but okay if put together right. And given the expensive hub, it could be worth a complete rebuild with carefully selected new spokes, removing all doubt about the condition of the current spokes.
Re: How many spokes?
Magik_ wrote:I would also like to hear opinions on spoke counts on wheels. Specifically for touring purposes when travelling light (<5kg equipment).
I have seen Shimano Dura Ace WH-7700 with only 16 spokes in both rear and front wheels (https://www.roadbikereview.com/product/wheels/wheelsets/shimano/wh-7700-dura-ace.html). Another thing about these is that the spokes go into the side of the rims in a paired "crossover" pattern.
What do you think about the durability of this wheelset for going on tour and in general? And how bad would it be if a spoke breaks on the road?
Sorry if this should be another thread; I figured it can be incorporated to the OP's question as it does represent the low-end extreme of the spoke count range.
Cheers,
Damjan
To throw a spanner into the works - I have done a tour using a a CF race bike and lightweight wheels (Campag Zonda) without any issues whatsoever. The tour was @ 1700km in the Alps with a load of 7kg and at the time I was 87kg. It wasn't all smooth tarmac either.
Whilst I chose to use the set up, it wasn't what i'd originally planned but it did work. The wheels have done about 10k km now and haven't been touched from new.
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
Re: How many spokes?
In terms of spokes, wheel weight, etc., there are various concerns:
* spoke weight vs strength. E.g., 32 DT Competition spokes are ~193g while 32 DT Revolution spokes are ~143g, but the latter is 'not recommended for freeride or downhill with disc braking', i.e. the spokes are weaker
* brass or aluminium nipples - a set of 32 of the former is ~30g, the latter 10g. The former clearly stronger.
* count of the above, e.g., 16 vs 32 spokes. Combined with the above concerns, you've got, say, 16 light spokes with alu nipples weighing 75g, and 32 strong spokes with brass nipples weighing 225g. Which is obviously 3x as much, or to put it another way the stronger stuff is 50% (or even more, if you use cheaper spokes) heavier than the light stuff, on top of the weight difference
* freehub body (for rear wheels, obviously) - steel, aluminium or possibly titanium. An alu freehub + body is around 250g, with steel typically 100g heavier.
* axles - steel vs aluminium. Hubs (front or rear) built with aluminium axles will be a bit lighter.
* rims - a very strong rim for downhill could could weigh over 700g, a more normal one about 500g, box section road wheels will be lighter but very deep aero rims can weight more than the downhill stuff, though they will come with fewer spokes and lighter hubs so less overall weight.
If you are considering for example whether to have a 24 spoke or 28 spoke front wheel, the 'cost' is only 32 grams even with strong spokes & brass nipples, which is an irrelevance, but when it comes to selling complete wheelsets, wheelset A weighing 1590g will look more appealing to most buyers than wheelset B weighing 1622g, as the compromises are not necessarily laid out, just a simple numbers game.
People trying to sell stuff to cyclists once swore blind that 'rim weight' was absolutely deadly, since it has greater momentum than the hub.
However they then found a different tack, which was that if you are going at 30mph, a deeper rim (which is heavier), will be more aero than a shallower one. And of course double bonus for selling stuff by making said deep rim lighter, by using carbon fibre rather than boring aluminium.
All the weight concerns are as I understand it essentially nonsense in that say 16F 20R light spokes with alloy nipples weighing 169 grams saves less than 300 grams over strong spokes with brass nipples. And that weight isn't really more significant, than say, dumping 330ml of water out of your bottle.
There's obviously no point in making things grossly overbuilt, but for normal use, a little extra weight seems to be far preferable than a little less, as for example a stronger wheel will keep in true longer, and there's no point in having a lightweight wheel that goes out of true on the first ride slowing you down far more than the weight would.
* spoke weight vs strength. E.g., 32 DT Competition spokes are ~193g while 32 DT Revolution spokes are ~143g, but the latter is 'not recommended for freeride or downhill with disc braking', i.e. the spokes are weaker
* brass or aluminium nipples - a set of 32 of the former is ~30g, the latter 10g. The former clearly stronger.
* count of the above, e.g., 16 vs 32 spokes. Combined with the above concerns, you've got, say, 16 light spokes with alu nipples weighing 75g, and 32 strong spokes with brass nipples weighing 225g. Which is obviously 3x as much, or to put it another way the stronger stuff is 50% (or even more, if you use cheaper spokes) heavier than the light stuff, on top of the weight difference
* freehub body (for rear wheels, obviously) - steel, aluminium or possibly titanium. An alu freehub + body is around 250g, with steel typically 100g heavier.
* axles - steel vs aluminium. Hubs (front or rear) built with aluminium axles will be a bit lighter.
* rims - a very strong rim for downhill could could weigh over 700g, a more normal one about 500g, box section road wheels will be lighter but very deep aero rims can weight more than the downhill stuff, though they will come with fewer spokes and lighter hubs so less overall weight.
If you are considering for example whether to have a 24 spoke or 28 spoke front wheel, the 'cost' is only 32 grams even with strong spokes & brass nipples, which is an irrelevance, but when it comes to selling complete wheelsets, wheelset A weighing 1590g will look more appealing to most buyers than wheelset B weighing 1622g, as the compromises are not necessarily laid out, just a simple numbers game.
People trying to sell stuff to cyclists once swore blind that 'rim weight' was absolutely deadly, since it has greater momentum than the hub.
However they then found a different tack, which was that if you are going at 30mph, a deeper rim (which is heavier), will be more aero than a shallower one. And of course double bonus for selling stuff by making said deep rim lighter, by using carbon fibre rather than boring aluminium.
All the weight concerns are as I understand it essentially nonsense in that say 16F 20R light spokes with alloy nipples weighing 169 grams saves less than 300 grams over strong spokes with brass nipples. And that weight isn't really more significant, than say, dumping 330ml of water out of your bottle.
There's obviously no point in making things grossly overbuilt, but for normal use, a little extra weight seems to be far preferable than a little less, as for example a stronger wheel will keep in true longer, and there's no point in having a lightweight wheel that goes out of true on the first ride slowing you down far more than the weight would.
Re: How many spokes?
Magik_ wrote:I would also like to hear opinions on spoke counts on wheels. Specifically for touring purposes when travelling light (<5kg equipment).
I have seen Shimano Dura Ace WH-7700 with only 16 spokes in both rear and front wheels (https://www.roadbikereview.com/product/wheels/wheelsets/shimano/wh-7700-dura-ace.html). Another thing about these is that the spokes go into the side of the rims in a paired "crossover" pattern.
What do you think about the durability of this wheelset for going on tour and in general? And how bad would it be if a spoke breaks on the road?
Sorry if this should be another thread; I figured it can be incorporated to the OP's question as it does represent the low-end extreme of the spoke count range.
Cheers,
Damjan
I have a pair of these wheels they aren't 1800gms more like 1700gms.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/whe ... /index.htm wouldn't use them for touring as getting a replacement spoke would be very difficult.
They are light and fast but you have to be careful not to damage the spokes with the brake blocks.
I use rs10 wheels for credit card touring with large saddle bag and bar bag not had any issues. My freind uses Aksium without any issues too. But we are both only 75 kg.
Does anyone know if they could be placed onto a more typical rim????
Cheers James
Re: How many spokes?
Jamesh wrote:
I have a pair of these wheels they aren't 1800gms more like 1700gms.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/whe ... /index.htm wouldn't use them for touring as getting a replacement spoke would be very difficult.
as noted upthread the spokes themselves are not that special, mainly the way of mounting them. They are not very aerodynamic wheels.
I use rs10 wheels for credit card touring with large saddle bag and bar bag not had any issues. My freind uses Aksium without any issues too. But we are both only 75 kg.
Does anyone know if they could be placed onto a more typical rim????
Not really. That is a good part of the problem with nearly all these wheels; rims are consumables but it isn't economically feasible to replace just the rim in these wheels. In most shimano wheels the price Madison want for a pair of new rims greatly exceeds the price you can buy the complete wheelset for. Duh. Similar argument with Mavic wheels too. There are a few aftermarket rims which are available in the right drillings, but again they are expensive, and they come in the wrong ERD etc. With 2:1 spoked rear wheels (Campag, Fulcrum, and some others) there is an even bigger problem in obtaining suitable rims. Bottom line is that you can buy some expensive rims and build another stupidly expensive wheelset (that offers no real advantage) around your old hubs.
Most seasoned cyclists favour stronger wheels with more spokes in for touring. An entirely unacceptable failure rate for touring wheels would be, say 10%, which still leaves a lot of people who can pipe up saying "ah yes, but I have happily used Daftasabrushminimalspokiums™ and they have been fine". Well bully for you, but that still doesn't make using such wheels for touring a smart move; when/if they give problems the hassle it causes is completely out of proportion with the 'benefits' (*) the rest of the time. [ (*) which may include riding more slowly in fact.]
cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: How many spokes?
I've bought to sets of 36 spoke wheels. I am heavier and do mainly touring. I don't know much about the road bike hubs, but Shimano offers most of their MTB hubs in a 36 hole
Like Brucey said; better to err on the side of caution.
Like Brucey said; better to err on the side of caution.
I wish it were as easy as riding a bike
Re: How many spokes?
Front wheels have an easier life than rear wheels so I have one bike on which I have 36 rear and 32 front, which seems to me to make sense. The rear has much more weight on it and the left/right spoking tensions are unequal. I suggest that where the 28 spoked wheel of the OP may have suffered is with downhill braking, where the front wheel can end up doing most of the work.
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fastpedaller
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Re: How many spokes?
In previous times the spoking was 40 on rear and 32 on front - this worked well, and was probably only dropped due to lower manufacturing costs of 36 holes on both.