Saddle Height - Which Indicator More Reliable

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
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NUKe
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Re: Saddle Height - Which Indicator More Reliable

Postby NUKe » 16 Apr 2019, 3:16pm

NUKe wrote:
Witterings wrote:
I have always used 108% of inseam


Sorry I know this is me being daft but 108% ????? That'll be longer than my inseam ie 76cm x 108% = 82.08cm so I wouldn't be able to reach the pedal at the bottom ??????? Or do I divide the 76 by 108 which gives me 0.70 which would be 70cm???? This would correlate to what the fitter is suggesting would be my optimum for a 25 degree knee bend but would feel very straneg at the moment

it might be worth considering a proper bike

Was that meant to be a proper bike FIT as opposed to a proper bike???

you need someone who understands injuries rather than someone who can give the best race set-up

I definitely think this is probably what I do need, I just want to get set up so I can ride distance at "a reasonable" pace .... I'm not racing or anything but more tour style of riding so comfort is the main aim.

Do you have access to a turbo trainer? Some pictures of you on your bike would be more useful.

I wish I did but unfortunately not and the people I ride with would have no more idea than me in knowing what to look for / would be right / wrong.

Cheers for the link to the Colins Bike Fit !!!


Sorry yes did mean proper Bike fit and not a proper bike.
But I did mean 108% of inseam, unless you have had your ankles fused. you need the reach to be slightly longer than your inseam to get power out
. 108 comes from old racing setup but you will be comfortable somewhere between comfortable between 103 and 108% of inseam. Don't forget your foot has length too
NUKe
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Witterings
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Re: Saddle Height - Which Indicator More Reliable

Postby Witterings » 16 Apr 2019, 3:58pm

NUKe wrote:But know I did mean 108% of inseam, unless you have had your ankles fused. you need the reach to be slightly longer than your inseam to get power out
. 108 comes from old racing setup but you will be comfortable somewhere between comfortable between 103 and 108% of inseam. Don't forget your foot has length too


So if I take 76cm inseam x 108% comes to 82cm ... where would I measure that from and to and I'm guessing this is a racing i.e. aggressive setup as opposed to a more relaxed touring type set up or isn't there any difference between the two?

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NUKe
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Re: Saddle Height - Which Indicator More Reliable

Postby NUKe » 16 Apr 2019, 5:39pm

Witterings wrote:
NUKe wrote:But know I did mean 108% of inseam, unless you have had your ankles fused. you need the reach to be slightly longer than your inseam to get power out
. 108 comes from old racing setup but you will be comfortable somewhere between comfortable between 103 and 108% of inseam. Don't forget your foot has length too


So if I take 76cm inseam x 108% comes to 82cm ... where would I measure that from and to and I'm guessing this is a racing i.e. aggressive setup as opposed to a more relaxed touring type set up or isn't there any difference between the two?


Pedal top to top of saddle, pedal at bottom of stroke, inline with the Downtube, used on both touring machines and race bikes for me.

As I said it might not agree with you, just worked for me, and its not a modern interpretation, I came across it in the 70s, I think it s in Ballentine's book and even when I have tried the other methods, I come back to this sweet spot for me. I think Colin531 recommends in his setup recommends around 103% and he worked for Spa.

If you are too low you will hurt your knees, if you are too high its the hips.
NUKe

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Mick F
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Re: Saddle Height - Which Indicator More Reliable

Postby Mick F » 16 Apr 2019, 8:23pm

Vorpal wrote:I would recommend Colin's bike fitting guide as well, but at the end of it, the most important thing is how you feel. If you are comfortable, that's the most important, surely?

+1
Use stuff as a guide, not the gospel.

Suck it and see, adjust as you go. When you are comfortable, does it matter what the figures say?
Mick F. Cornwall

philvantwo
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Re: Saddle Height - Which Indicator More Reliable

Postby philvantwo » 16 Apr 2019, 8:39pm

What about the handlebar height Mick F?
[color=#FF0000][/color]

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Mick F
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Re: Saddle Height - Which Indicator More Reliable

Postby Mick F » 16 Apr 2019, 9:06pm

That depends on many things, but the main thing is to be comfortable.
I like my 'bars a couple of inches lower than the saddle as I have long arms and like the stooped position rather than sitting up high.

I like a low cadence, and I also like a rock hard saddle.
We're all different.
Mick F. Cornwall

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531colin
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Re: Saddle Height - Which Indicator More Reliable

Postby 531colin » 16 Apr 2019, 9:10pm

NUKe wrote:……... I think Colin531 recommends in his setup recommends around 103% .........

OH NO HE DOESN'T!
My DIY bike fit guide is linked below; read the bit about saddle height, forcing the gear, and all that stuff.
I don't have much time for any of these "body dimension times a magic number" approaches. I think "bike fitting" should be the fitting of the bike to the rider.....all the "magic number" stuff does is force the rider into some kind of pre-conceived ideal or average. The variations in the last couple of pages show just how "valuable" it all is.

Riding toe down all the time is a relatively recent fashion. (I'm 71 years old, so its readily possible that my "relatively recent fashion" can be somebody else's "I've done it like this all my life".) Holding the toe down requires contraction of the calf muscles, a relatively small muscle group. Try this; stand on one foot, and go up on your toes and back down again. Do sets of 10 .....how many sets of 10 can you get up to? Do you still think that the calf muscles can contribute meaningfully to propelling your bike?
Read Steve Hogg here https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/04/power-to-the-pedal-cleat-position/ particularly 2 and 3.

While you're at it, read Steve Hogg on saddle height here https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/02/seat-height-how-hard-can-it-be/ ....theres an addendum to that one as well....

yostumpy
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Re: Saddle Height - Which Indicator More Reliable

Postby yostumpy » 17 Apr 2019, 7:14am

I had a similar thread, about October/Nov last year, my 'established ' seat height was too high. It is now some 18 mm ish Lower than it had been for prob 20 years. Having read this post, I re read my old one, and checked the Le Mond .88 figure, to the dimples, first time I have done so, and it's actually 'spot on'. Slightly lower/ shorter stem, and it's more comfy, so I was too high, and too stretched.

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NUKe
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Re: Saddle Height - Which Indicator More Reliable

Postby NUKe » 17 Apr 2019, 10:26am

531colin wrote:
NUKe wrote:……... I think Colin531 recommends in his setup recommends around 103% .........

OH NO HE DOESN'T!
....

OH yes he does (sorry couldn't resist)

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46067&p=377582&hilit=Seat+he+seat+height#p377582
“I think any of these "magic formulas" , that's "heel on pedal" or "book up your crotch" only ever give you a place to start.
Here is my best shot at the "book up your crotch" method..http://www.spacycles.co.uk/info/bikesizing.php
Note that we have found experienced riders saddle height to be between ONE inch and THREE inches more than this measurement. In other words its next to useless for setting your saddle height, useable with caution for working out frame size.
My personal measurement is leg plus an inch. I like to sit well behind the pedals.
From memory, Mick F. was leg plus three inches, Mick uses "road" cleats and sits further forward than me.”
Incidentally one inch on my leg length is 103% and 3 inch is 108%

But I think we can all agree that all the methods just give a good starting point.
NUKe

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pga
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Re: Saddle Height - Which Indicator More Reliable

Postby pga » 17 Apr 2019, 6:14pm

The old 1.09 per cent rule still has supporters. The two thirds inner leg length likewise. Always go for the smaller frame.

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NUKe
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Re: Saddle Height - Which Indicator More Reliable

Postby NUKe » 17 Apr 2019, 7:23pm

pga wrote:The old 1.09 per cent rule still has supporters. The two thirds inner leg length likewise. Always go for the smaller frame.

Can you explain the two thirds inseam. I am guessing this is not with the pedal at six o’clock.
If that’s in the 12 o’clock position assuming a 30 inch inseam and 170mm crank it comes out at suspiciously the same answer of 109. Everyone’s calculations tend toward the magic number.
NUKe

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Witterings
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Re: Saddle Height - Which Indicator More Reliable

Postby Witterings » 18 Apr 2019, 10:51am

Re-measured my inseam a couple of times and it's 77 not 76cm, have lowered the saddle from where it was and it was better but just felt a tiny smidge too low which probably equates to about 3/5mm .... if I take what I think it should now be and do the 1.09 it works out pretty much spot on and also coincides with the 0.883 theory as well.

Maybe both of these give reasonably good starting points with minor tweaks for individual riders from there.

I'd be interested in trying the cycling up hill now and adjust either side to see how it feels but we're pretty flat around here unless we do one of our longer rides, I may chuck the bike in the back of the car one day though and drive somewhere just to try it.

Thanks for everyone's input and various links ... much appreciated!!! :D

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531colin
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Re: Saddle Height - Which Indicator More Reliable

Postby 531colin » 18 Apr 2019, 3:12pm

NUKe wrote:
531colin wrote:
NUKe wrote:……... I think Colin531 recommends in his setup recommends around 103% .........

OH NO HE DOESN'T!
....

OH yes he does (sorry couldn't resist)

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46067&p=377582&hilit=Seat+he+seat+height#p377582
“I think any of these "magic formulas" , that's "heel on pedal" or "book up your crotch" only ever give you a place to start.
Here is my best shot at the "book up your crotch" method..http://www.spacycles.co.uk/info/bikesizing.php
Note that we have found experienced riders saddle height to be between ONE inch and THREE inches more than this measurement. In other words its next to useless for setting your saddle height, useable with caution for working out frame size.
My personal measurement is leg plus an inch. I like to sit well behind the pedals.
From memory, Mick F. was leg plus three inches, Mick uses "road" cleats and sits further forward than me.”
Incidentally one inch on my leg length is 103% and 3 inch is 108%

But I think we can all agree that all the methods just give a good starting point.


I wrote that the "book up your crotch" method is next to useless. From that, how do you get that I recommend inside leg times a particular magic number?

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Re: Saddle Height - Which Indicator More Reliable

Postby PH » 18 Apr 2019, 3:39pm

Witterings wrote:Re-measured my inseam a couple of times and it's 77 not 76cm, have lowered the saddle from where it was and it was better but just felt a tiny smidge too low which probably equates to about 3/5mm .... if I take what I think it should now be and do the 1.09 it works out pretty much spot on and also coincides with the 0.883 theory as well.

I have clothing variations that will make more than 3mm difference to saddle height, do you really need it that precise? Even if so, when you get to such fine tuning it's likely to take more than a ride round the block to evaluate it, unless something is causing me pain it might take several hundred miles to decide if it's right.

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Re: Saddle Height - Which Indicator More Reliable

Postby Witterings » 18 Apr 2019, 4:43pm

PH wrote:I have clothing variations that will make more than 3mm difference to saddle height, do you really need it that precise? Even if so, when you get to such fine tuning it's likely to take more than a ride round the block to evaluate it, unless something is causing me pain it might take several hundred miles to decide if it's right.


I lowered it because it was too high and with my hip replacements has been causing considerable pain after rides but it's always a day or too later that it comes on.
It feels marginally too low at the moment which is 10mm below what caused my hip to be absolutely terrible so that small adjustment may make it "nicer" to ride and hopefully not aggravate the hip again so to most people a small movement like that may be fairly incidental but of you've had and injury and yet still want to be comfortable riding they can seem like quite a lot.