Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
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mjr
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Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby mjr » 29 Apr 2019, 11:25pm

If the colour of someone's clothing makes 300m of difference in range of someone seeing it, it's time for them to surrender their licence.

If boot-crawling is that widespread on that road, the police should be running stings for some easy convictions.
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JohnW
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Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby JohnW » 30 Apr 2019, 2:59pm

mjr wrote:If the colour of someone's clothing makes 300m of difference in range of someone seeing it, it's time for them to surrender their licence.

If boot-crawling is that widespread on that road, the police should be running stings for some easy convictions.

+1 to both of those, but nothing will ever happen.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby Cunobelin » 2 May 2019, 6:26pm

We could ask about black cars - a bad idea?

We never get hysterical responses about black or dark coloured cars...

This is despite unequivocal evidence (as opposed to the anecdotal evidence with cyclists) that they are involved in many more accidents than light coloured cars

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Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby JohnW » 2 May 2019, 10:39pm

Cunobelin wrote:We could ask about black cars - a bad idea?........................

Cars of any colour.................!
I didn't think that we'd got hysterical though.
The colour of vehicles is outside of our terms of reference and influence as cyclists.
Lance's post (on page 3, 27th April) is interesting.

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Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby Richard D » 3 May 2019, 7:55am

Cunobelin wrote:We could ask about black cars - a bad idea?

We never get hysterical responses about black or dark coloured cars...


"Victim-blaming" is much, much less prevalent when it’s someone in a black car who is hit rather than someone on a bike.

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Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby pjclinch » 3 May 2019, 8:03am

I only managed the first couple of screens of Hi-Viz wars, but cutting back to the chase...

If you have a rain jacket you really like except for the colour, wanting something brighter, pop a suitably loud Sam Browne belt over the top. It is now much less stealthy, your psychological fears abated. Whether it does you any good I won't try and call, but the main point is you have a decent waterproof you like and you don't have a nagging worry as you ride along. Job done.

And only wear a waterproof if it's raining. Yes, I know that Goretex is a Miracle Fabric but the fact remains it's much less breathable than something that allows some degree of actual tangible airflow through the fabric, so that's all the time it's not raining (and that's most of the time, unless you stay in Glenfinnan or similar) you don't have to worry about the colour.

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mmcnay
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Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby mmcnay » 3 May 2019, 9:27am

Sometimes, in bright summer days, I ride in the country without hi-viz, but mostly I wear a hi-viz bib - Altura red and yellow. And hi-viz ankle bands - and gloves or wristbands depending on the weather. It makes me feel safer (seen), and also feel that other road users will see my signals when I make a turn. (I often ride home in the evenings, from urban streets to the countryside.)
I'm not hysterical - I don't wear a helmet, and I am a confident cyclist who can command the lane in urban traffic.
But my decision is that I want to be seen, I want to be seen at the earliest opportunity so that other road users have the maximum amount of time to make decisions with my presence included in that decision.
This matters in low light situations - or when it is a bit misty or rainy.
Health and Safety is about assessing the risk (massive when cycling) and taking responsibility for my safety within that risk. Wearing black or other dull colours increases the risk of not being seen in low light situations. (That's why criminals wear black at night, and soldiers wear khaki. They don't want to be seen.)

Anyway, my two bob's worth.

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Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby irc » 3 May 2019, 11:38am

mmcnay wrote:(That's why criminals wear black at night, and soldiers wear khaki. They don't want to be seen.)


No, no!!! They are just as easily seen in black as in bright colours. I'm surprised the SAS didn't wear HiViz when storming the IKranian embassy. According to some of the opinion here it would make no difference.

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Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby pwa » 3 May 2019, 11:54am

pjclinch wrote:I only managed the first couple of screens of Hi-Viz wars, but cutting back to the chase...

If you have a rain jacket you really like except for the colour, wanting something brighter, pop a suitably loud Sam Browne belt over the top. It is now much less stealthy, your psychological fears abated. Whether it does you any good I won't try and call, but the main point is you have a decent waterproof you like and you don't have a nagging worry as you ride along. Job done.

And only wear a waterproof if it's raining. Yes, I know that Goretex is a Miracle Fabric but the fact remains it's much less breathable than something that allows some degree of actual tangible airflow through the fabric, so that's all the time it's not raining (and that's most of the time, unless you stay in Glenfinnan or similar) you don't have to worry about the colour.

Pete.

Personally, half the time I wear a waterproof it is the wind blocking aspect that I wear it for, in really cold weather. But as for the Sam Browne belt idea, I did try that many years ago (when they were more commonly seen) and couldn't get the strap over the shoulder to stay in place. But there are minimalist mesh vests with lots of reflectives that do a similar job and allow you to stop to take your jacket off and still keep the reflectives.

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Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby Samuel D » 3 May 2019, 12:16pm

irc wrote:No, no!!! They are just as easily seen in black as in bright colours. I'm surprised the SAS didn't wear HiViz when storming the IKranian embassy. According to some of the opinion here it would make no difference.

You jest, but I don’t when I recommend they wear hi-viz the next time they’re operating in a typical British town or city. They’d never be spotted against the backdrop of vehicle DRLs, cyclists, pedestrians, dogs, road workers, police officers, horses, advertisements, signage flashing and neon, trivial health and safety warnings everywhere you look, etc., etc.

Our cities have become “an impenetrable confusion of forms, colours and noises”. Is this really how we want to live?

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Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby pwa » 3 May 2019, 12:22pm

Who stands out best in this scene, and who stands out least?
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5160881 ... 6?hl=en-GB

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Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby Samuel D » 3 May 2019, 12:45pm

They’re all adequately visible at a glance, even in a murky webcam-quality image.

Now scroll to the right. Does the illuminated hi-viz motorcyclist stand out against the illuminated hi-viz van – because a white box the height and wingspan of a man is nowadays too subtle – as well as his less-offensive helmet does?

The whole scene is an affront to anyone who enjoys seeing. Living in that sort of built environment sucks the visual joy out of life and needlessly. I refuse to perpetrate this crime by giving in to the scaredy-cats … even if they’re right which they’re often not. It’s not enough that hi-viz can in some cases improve visibility. It must usefully improve visibility and not incur a greater cost to net human happiness. It usually falls at both hurdles independently.

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Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby roubaixtuesday » 3 May 2019, 12:59pm

Seems to me very similar to the helmet debate.

The evidence is that hi-viz overall makes little difference to cyclists' safety. See for example the studies cited here.

https://cyclingfallacies.com/en/19/peop ... en-cycling

However, individual cyclists may feel safer wearing hi-viz - I certainly prefer to have reflectives - partly fropm personal experience that as a driver, they are very noticeable.

It's very unlikely wearing such will do any harm, but equally it probably doesn't actually make me much safer.

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Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby irc » 3 May 2019, 1:17pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:The evidence is that hi-viz overall makes little difference to cyclists' safety. See for example the studies cited here.

https://cyclingfallacies.com/en/19/peop ... en-cycling

However, individual cyclists may feel safer wearing hi-viz - I certainly prefer to have reflectives - partly fropm personal experience that as a driver, they are very noticeable.

It's very unlikely wearing such will do any harm, but equally it probably doesn't actually make me much safer.


I agree any difference is likely to be small and only in a few circumstances. Unlike wearing a helmet though there is no downside to me wearing a bright coloured top and/or reflectives. I'm wearing a top anyway. Any an accident is best avoided than the consequences of having one maybe mitigated.

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Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby JohnW » 3 May 2019, 1:19pm

Richard D wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:We could ask about black cars - a bad idea?

We never get hysterical responses about black or dark coloured cars...


"Victim-blaming" is much, much less prevalent when it’s someone in a black car who is hit rather than someone on a bike.

You are spot on with that Richard - or any colour of car in fact.