Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 3156
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby Bmblbzzz » 3 May 2019, 3:12pm

Samuel D wrote:The whole scene is an affront to anyone who enjoys seeing. Living in that sort of built environment sucks the visual joy out of life and needlessly.

Too true. We are all creating a world without beauty.

User avatar
feefee8
Posts: 207
Joined: 31 Jul 2013, 1:35pm
Location: Fort William

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby feefee8 » 3 May 2019, 3:15pm

pjclinch wrote:...so that's all the time it's not raining (and that's most of the time, unless you stay in Glenfinnan or similar) you don't have to worry about the colour.


My commute starts within 8 miles of Glenfinnan and I never wear waterproofs!

Mike Sales
Posts: 4904
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby Mike Sales » 3 May 2019, 3:26pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:Too true. We are all creating a world without beauty.


This applies especially in the hills. Orange anoraks and tents are a blight.
If you expect to need rescue then carry an orange flag in your sac.

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 10618
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby Cunobelin » 3 May 2019, 7:31pm

irc wrote:
mmcnay wrote:(That's why criminals wear black at night, and soldiers wear khaki. They don't want to be seen.)


No, no!!! They are just as easily seen in black as in bright colours. I'm surprised the SAS didn't wear HiViz when storming the IKranian embassy. According to some of the opinion here it would make no difference.

Another one of the cases that proves the myth of HiViz

Service towns typically have higher rates of cycling and many cyclists in camouflage... yet the carnage that should be happening doesn’t

Which beggars the question about the effectiveness of not only HiViz, but the present design for camouflage

User avatar
RickH
Posts: 5003
Joined: 5 Mar 2012, 6:39pm
Location: Horwich, Lancs.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby RickH » 3 May 2019, 7:53pm

Cunobelin wrote:... Which beggars the question about the effectiveness of not only HiViz, but the present design for camouflage

Camouflage is designed to break up the human shape to make it less obvious. The UK design was changed a couple of years ago to one that is supposed to effective in a wider range of environments but I remember seeing a TV programme looking at the previous design of camoflage. In woodland it was really effective but someone walking across open moorland really stood out as they were against a monotone background.

Cyril Haearn
Posts: 13041
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am
Location: Between the woods and the water

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby Cyril Haearn » 3 May 2019, 8:20pm

Why might service towns have more cyclists?

Each national army has its own camouflage so one can identify the enemy :?
Desert camouflage is different, and polar camouflage :wink:
Entertainer, kidult, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we dislike mortons

irc
Posts: 4709
Joined: 3 Dec 2008, 2:22pm
Location: glasgow

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby irc » 4 May 2019, 7:06am

Cunobelin wrote:Service towns typically have higher rates of cycling and many cyclists in camouflage... yet the carnage that should be happening doesn’t


Nobody on this thread has suggested HiViz makes the difference between carnage and safety. A small difference at the margin is what is being claimed as far as I have seen. So, that said, can you point to any stats comparing a service town with a similar non service town to see what the difference is?

gregoryoftours
Posts: 1167
Joined: 22 May 2011, 7:14pm

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby gregoryoftours » 4 May 2019, 10:18am

Road positioning makes far more of a difference to being seen or overlooked/brain edited out by other road users in an urban context. Fluro Hi viz or not is not a major factor. Reflective is another matter and can be very effective in low light, especially moving eg pedals, ankle straps. It's not good but I also feel that hi viz attracts more aggressive behaviour.

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 10618
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby Cunobelin » 4 May 2019, 12:29pm

irc wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:Service towns typically have higher rates of cycling and many cyclists in camouflage... yet the carnage that should be happening doesn’t


Nobody on this thread has suggested HiViz makes the difference between carnage and safety. A small difference at the margin is what is being claimed as far as I have seen. So, that said, can you point to any stats comparing a service town with a similar non-service town to see what the difference is?



I suggested that with so many people in camouflage that (In theory) makes them difficult to see.... the opposite of HiViz

Cyril Haearn
Posts: 13041
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am
Location: Between the woods and the water

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby Cyril Haearn » 4 May 2019, 12:33pm

Samuel D wrote:..
Our cities have become “an impenetrable confusion of forms, colours and noises”. Is this really how we want to live?

Even Blaenau Ffestiniog? :wink:
Entertainer, kidult, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we dislike mortons

User avatar
The utility cyclist
Posts: 3177
Joined: 22 Aug 2016, 12:28pm
Location: The first garden city

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby The utility cyclist » 4 May 2019, 4:05pm

mmcnay wrote:Sometimes, in bright summer days, I ride in the country without hi-viz, but mostly I wear a hi-viz bib - Altura red and yellow. And hi-viz ankle bands - and gloves or wristbands depending on the weather. It makes me feel safer (seen), and also feel that other road users will see my signals when I make a turn. (I often ride home in the evenings, from urban streets to the countryside.)
I'm not hysterical - I don't wear a helmet, and I am a confident cyclist who can command the lane in urban traffic.
But my decision is that I want to be seen, I want to be seen at the earliest opportunity so that other road users have the maximum amount of time to make decisions with my presence included in that decision.
This matters in low light situations - or when it is a bit misty or rainy.
Health and Safety is about assessing the risk (massive when cycling) and taking responsibility for my safety within that risk. Wearing black or other dull colours increases the risk of not being seen in low light situations. (That's why criminals wear black at night, and soldiers wear khaki. They don't want to be seen.)

Anyway, my two bob's worth.

Does it, in what way? What is the differential between someone looking/seeing and acting within the law and with respect to your well being and someone who isn't who is likely to not see you at all no matter what colour or so called visibility aid because they simply aren't looking, don't register who/what you are nor make the lawfully required actions to keep you from harm? From what we see none of it makes a jot of difference.

I never put on anything that shouts hi-vis, I don't give it a second thought and never have, not since I started cycling on the roads as a young teen in the early/mid 80s. I used to have a predominantly pink/white Campagnolo top in the early 90s and that was about as 'hi-vis' as I ever got, generally most of my gear is black. I have 2 blue long sleeved autumn/spring long sleeve tops one dark, one a bit lighter, 2x DeMarchi s/s tops in blue and red but the rest is black, black and white, grey, taupe, dark red, grey/burnt orange, all my jackets are black that have some reflectives but that is almost unavoidable these days such is the whole programming of people to think reflectives/hi-vis is important and needs to be a thing on garments as a safety feature.

Personally I believe that the wearing of hi-vis, use flashy lights during the day all contribute to a worse outcome for people on bikes, of course it's not deliberate on the users part, they are all duped into thinking that it's of benefit and indeed quite a lot say that they don't want reduced compensation* if matters ever came to that. But the shift in responsibility keeps on going and nothing has ever changed in terms of safety, only got worse, more victim blaming and worse outcomes with compensation and even criminal proceedings.

*If this does not occur to motorists who are injured/have losses then by definition it would be discriminatory to reduce a payout on the basis of not wearing hi-vis, helmets etc.

djbrown114
Posts: 1
Joined: 13 Sep 2018, 1:42pm

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby djbrown114 » 4 May 2019, 6:05pm

Re Black waterproofs, i recall reading something about visibility suggesting that a bright pair or leggings/shorts and/or overshoes is more effective at making us visible because those parts of us (on bicycles) are usually moving.
As suggested above lights are more important IMO in the rain.

I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my F5321 using hovercraft full of eels.

nez
Posts: 1796
Joined: 19 Jun 2008, 12:11am

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby nez » 4 May 2019, 9:40pm

I don't think hi viz helps much* and I don't think it helps at all at night. I have a showers pass black jacket which passes for an ordinary jacket during the day and reflects back light at night. Since I don't go to discos it is a good compromise.

*I do leave the dynamo lights on during the day

Bmblbzzz
Posts: 3156
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby Bmblbzzz » 4 May 2019, 9:51pm

It would cut a dash on the dance floor too! Might get a bit sweaty though...

Bmblbzzz
Posts: 3156
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Postby Bmblbzzz » 4 May 2019, 9:52pm

What doesn't help is when people restrict the term "hi-viz" to fluorescents, neglecting that reflectives and DRLs are also forms of hi-viz.