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Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 4 May 2019, 10:28pm
by The utility cyclist
Bmblbzzz wrote:What doesn't help is when people restrict the term "hi-viz" to fluorescents, neglecting that reflectives and DRLs are also forms of hi-viz.

But reflectives only work during the hours of darkness AND IF there is a light source AND if the person with the light source is looking AND if they act accordingly. DRLs again have no evidence of working, they contribute to the problem, when/if all have DRLs how do you stand out. Motors now are just increasing light intensity to gain more notice and so the light war continues. Not sure of the % but a large % have DRLs, when that is virtually 100% you are back to the same situation as before and now people on bikes stand out even less and thus more victim blaming will occur.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 5 May 2019, 11:05am
by thirdcrank
Apart from posting on cycling forums, does anybody who feels strongly about this do anything else about it?

Mention of daytime running lights reminds me that at one time, the officially published advice - although not in the HC - was that if a pedal cycle was used in the daytime during a period of reduced visibility, if lights were fitted then they must be on (my wording.) For some time I took this to be correct because it was included in CJ's legal stuff which is usually 110% kosher. When I twigged that this was not the case, I wrote to the menfromtheministry and after being ignored for some time, I received a rather churlish reply - not "thank you for bringing to light :wink: our elementary error in our legal advice" - begrudgingly saying that they had changed the advice to say it was only "advisable." That was in 2010.

viewtopic.php?p=360980#p360980

More recently, I stumbled across the information that one police force had issued four fixed penalty notices for this (imaginary) offence.

viewtopic.php?p=1165421#p1165421

It seems I wasted my time, but I did try. In the meantime, daytime lights on pedal cycles seem to be er .. seen ... as the norm.

(I write as somebody who grew up at a time when bike lamps were in farthing candle territory.
https://quotes.yourdictionary.com/author/quotes/538870 )

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 5 May 2019, 3:45pm
by lbomaak2
Slightly off-topic maybe, but a black waterproof jacket is definitely a bad idea if it requires a pair of scissors to remove it.

I have had my Madison Stellar for 18 months, although it has only been in regular use for less than a year (I carried on using my old jacket until it was completely unwearable). I was wearing it yesterday, but during one of the sunny periods between the showers I was feeling rather warm, so wanted to take it off. The zip wouldn't move downwards, although it did move up a bit. I soon gave up trying to unzip it, and just had to put up with feeling too warm.

When i got home, I asked my wife to help with it; she is much better than me with anything mechanical. She spent about 20 minutes, using oil, soap and various tools, but couldn't budge the zip. Eventually she just got a pair of scissors and cut the jacket off me. One moderately expensive and otherwise excellent jacket now in the dustbin.

I have had zips get stuck before, but never in such a permanent way. Has anyone else had an experience like this?

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 5 May 2019, 6:35pm
by pwa
lbomaak2 wrote:Slightly off-topic maybe, but a black waterproof jacket is definitely a bad idea if it requires a pair of scissors to remove it.

I have had my Madison Stellar for 18 months, although it has only been in regular use for less than a year (I carried on using my old jacket until it was completely unwearable). I was wearing it yesterday, but during one of the sunny periods between the showers I was feeling rather warm, so wanted to take it off. The zip wouldn't move downwards, although it did move up a bit. I soon gave up trying to unzip it, and just had to put up with feeling too warm.

When i got home, I asked my wife to help with it; she is much better than me with anything mechanical. She spent about 20 minutes, using oil, soap and various tools, but couldn't budge the zip. Eventually she just got a pair of scissors and cut the jacket off me. One moderately expensive and otherwise excellent jacket now in the dustbin.

I have had zips get stuck before, but never in such a permanent way. Has anyone else had an experience like this?

It is often the weakest part of a jacket. I have an otherwise excellent jacket that now only does up by the velcro patches, the zip now refusing to budge if I try to do it up.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 5 May 2019, 8:24pm
by Bmblbzzz
The utility cyclist wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:What doesn't help is when people restrict the term "hi-viz" to fluorescents, neglecting that reflectives and DRLs are also forms of hi-viz.

But reflectives only work during the hours of darkness AND IF there is a light source AND if the person with the light source is looking AND if they act accordingly. DRLs again have no evidence of working, they contribute to the problem, when/if all have DRLs how do you stand out. Motors now are just increasing light intensity to gain more notice and so the light war continues. Not sure of the % but a large % have DRLs, when that is virtually 100% you are back to the same situation as before and now people on bikes stand out even less and thus more victim blaming will occur.

And fluorescents only work during the hours of daylight. Effectiveness or lack of does not stop things being hi-viz. An item that is genuinely highly visible will of course be effective in a search and rescue situation (or even a "looking for the thing in the fridge" situation) but being highly visible on a road will only be effective in reducing collisions if, on a population basis, it changes behaviour of other road users once they have seen the highly visible item or person.

As regards DRLs on cars and to a lesser extent buses and lorries, I think they are both a marketing and a market protection measure. Because only the EU (so far) mandates them, European manufacturers fit them as standard but others (Far Eastern, American, etc) must add them to their models for the European market. The additional expense is probably small but there's also the slight redesign, aesthetically and in terms of wiring etc, needed. The marketing factor comes because European manufacturers will often fit DRLs to all their models including those for non-EU markets. As European cars outside Europe tend to occupy higher price segments than domestic equivalents, this acts as a form of marketing: look at me, I'm driving an import from Europe!

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 5 May 2019, 9:19pm
by Vitara
10 pages on and we're still arguing about what colour it should be!

The Gore One Shake dry can currently only be made in black because of the limitations involved in producing the highly technical fabric.

Its selling point is that is fully waterproof and breathable. That's not just the advertising claim, I've been there 5hrs cycling in heavy rain and still warm and dry underneath. I don't think there is another cycling jacket, of any colour, that will achieve that. For an all weather Audax rider it's a must have piece of kit.

This discussion is rather like Golgafrinchams and the wheel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVkYaZXCl8U

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 5 May 2019, 9:23pm
by thirdcrank
lbomaak2 wrote:...I have had zips get stuck before, but never in such a permanent way. Has anyone else had an experience like this?


I've never had to cut one off. Take it off over your head like a pullover and then it's easier to free when you are not wearing it and getting hot and bothered.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 5 May 2019, 10:23pm
by lbomaak2
thirdcrank wrote:
lbomaak2 wrote:...I have had zips get stuck before, but never in such a permanent way. Has anyone else had an experience like this?


I've never had to cut one off. Take it off over your head like a pullover and then it's easier to free when you are not wearing it and getting hot and bothered.


I tried that, but the zip was done up too high, and I couldn't get the jacket over my head.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 6 May 2019, 5:15am
by brynpoeth
Might have been possible to carefully cut back the top of the zip, then over the head, there are still tailors who replace them
Zips: love to hate? Back to buttons?

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 7 May 2019, 9:44pm
by pga
Decathlon has a black very light waterproof jacket for about £35 but like many others I am reluctant to buy it as visibility must be poor compared with a brighter colour. Likewise much cycling kit is black. I prefer to be seen.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 8 May 2019, 8:03am
by pjclinch
lbomaak2 wrote:When i got home, I asked my wife to help with it; she is much better than me with anything mechanical. She spent about 20 minutes, using oil, soap and various tools, but couldn't budge the zip. Eventually she just got a pair of scissors and cut the jacket off me. One moderately expensive and otherwise excellent jacket now in the dustbin.

I have had zips get stuck before, but never in such a permanent way. Has anyone else had an experience like this?


No, but I've had zips die. And rather than throw away the jacket having cut the zip out I've had a new zip put in at a fraction of the cost of a new jacket.

If you trash a jacket some other way but the zip is good, unpick the zip and keep it. My old gardening fleece (originally my do-everything fleece, bought 1985) sports a main zip from a cycling jacket that was a bit the worse for wear having houlder-barged a road at getting on for 30 mph. Also keep cord-locks, toggles, QR buckles etc.

Pete.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 8 May 2019, 8:18am
by thirdcrank
I hope I didn't sound unsympathetic because I know from plenty of experience what it's like, hence my comment about getting hot and bothered.

I've had two broad problems with zips. One is when a standard - one-way - zip acts like a two-way. The other involves the strip of fabric which protects the zip (I've forgotten its name) on some garments getting caught in the zip.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 8 May 2019, 11:17am
by Bmblbzzz
What about the two "jaws" of the zip failing to mesh at one point? That seems common to me, though probably more typical of things like backpacks than jackets.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 8 May 2019, 12:51pm
by mjr
pga wrote:Decathlon has a black very light waterproof jacket for about £35 but like many others I am reluctant to buy it as visibility must be poor compared with a brighter colour. Likewise much cycling kit is black. I prefer to be seen.

Black can be seen perfectly well, else you would not know much cycling kit is black. As others have stated often, visibility is about contrast and I'm currently looking out at yet another steel grey sky above fields of yellow rapeseed...

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 8 May 2019, 2:04pm
by Bmblbzzz
Plenty of road furniture is black, including bollards. I'm not sure that's entirely comparable but hey, wear the colour you like, I say. I like colour colours myself and try to avoid both black and white, but many like them.