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Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 28 Apr 2019, 11:16pm
by slowster
mjr wrote:
slowster wrote:
mjr wrote:To the contrary: they contain the perspective of a driver who knows that it's quite simple to do like the highway code says and treat cyclists like a small car and all the victim-blaming and self-loathing telling people to wear special clothes is enabling and prolonging our current might-makes-right broken British road environment.

I generally conclude that people who make claims about how good a driver they are, are often mistaken (unless they have passed the Advanced Driving test).

I made no such claim, however you did:
I don't consider myself to be a particularly good driver, and I am not an Advanced Driver, but I did get some additional instruction after passing my test. [...loads of driving instruction..]

I suggested that you were implying that you were a good driver because you observed speed limits and maintained that 'it's quite simple to do like the highway code says and treat cyclists like a small car'. Driving well and safely is not simple, whether it concerns interacting with cyclists, pedestrians or any other road user.

As to me claiming to be a good driver - I did not. 'Some additional instruction' is not 'loads'. I did not claim that it made me a better driver, or that I was a good pupil - a lot of the time my driving has been poor because I ignored or forgot what I was told in those lessons.

The key point was that I was detailing some of the things the instructor told me I should do, which were based on the Advanced Driving handbook, and which were relevant to this thread, i.e. early hazard identification and maximising reaction times. These are hallmarks of good safer driving.

I'm sure that black is more visible in some conditions. However, a lot of cyclists ride in countryside near me, and those in all black kit are far less visible. They do not have any reflectors on their bikes - these are not people on utility bikes wearing ordinary clothes. They are on road bikes and wearing black bib tights, black jackets/jerseys and black helmets. Many of them are riding on roads with cars travelling at or near the 60mph limit. I think the increased risk of wearing all black kit in such situations outweighs the benefit from wearing it in those situations when it might provide good visibility.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 28 Apr 2019, 11:37pm
by JohnW
The utility cyclist wrote:
JohnW wrote:Esnip
Make what you want of that situation, but if you'd been there you may have formed a positive view about hi-viz.

Not for me, it says to me you weren't looking/seeing properly and nor was the driver, I can't believe how you can validate your stance on such a weak position that clearly highlights your and the drivers mistake, presume you're ignoring that all/vast majority of the other drivers that day didn't make the same errors?......................

You weren't there, you know nothing about it. I can't believe how you can validate your stance on such a weak position of ignorance. The driver was looking properly - he was very careful to give adequate clearance to myself and the other cyclist, and he was alert enough to take the correct action as soon as the darkly clad cyclist became visible. I take your comments relating to me as an uninformed insult, and I will not continue to respond to your posts in this matter.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 29 Apr 2019, 12:18am
by mjr
slowster wrote:They do not have any reflectors on their bikes - these are not people on utility bikes wearing ordinary clothes. They are on road bikes and wearing black bib tights, black jackets/jerseys and black helmets. Many of them are riding on roads with cars travelling at or near the 60mph limit. I think the increased risk of wearing all black kit in such situations outweighs the benefit from wearing it in those situations when it might provide good visibility.

And I think it would be far better to avoid being in that situation by fitting the legally required reflective parts than farting around changing their clothes for other colours!

I am not replying to your continued humblebragging about driving beyond saying I disagree with your interpretations but they are not really on topic IMO.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 29 Apr 2019, 12:36am
by gaz
Previous thread, also heavily laden with similar anecdata.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 29 Apr 2019, 6:32am
by Cunobelin
Always reminds me of the nutters in the New Forest who want the "wild" ponies to wear Hi-Viz AND lights!

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 29 Apr 2019, 6:35am
by Cunobelin
PH wrote:Don’t think hi viz clothing will keep you seen, although hi viz has a place in some circumstances such as low light conditions, it is contrast that catches the attention of the driver who might pull out on you, that, and movements the human eye and brain are wired to detect.
Not my words, but from the West Midlands Traffic Police blog
https://trafficwmp.wordpress.com/2016/0 ... -new-dawn/

Trying to catch up with a group last year it struck me that the most noticeable rider was the one in a navy jersey with a yellow band, this was amongst those in everything from flo yellow to the blackest of black. I'm not saying noticeable = safer, but it surprised me just how much they stood out.



One of the issues of HiViz is that it isn't.

As your anecdote suggests. it is in contrast with the surroundings.

You really need half a dozen tops for each ride to change each time the background changes and guarantee maximum visibility

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 29 Apr 2019, 9:04am
by pwa
Cunobelin wrote:
PH wrote:Don’t think hi viz clothing will keep you seen, although hi viz has a place in some circumstances such as low light conditions, it is contrast that catches the attention of the driver who might pull out on you, that, and movements the human eye and brain are wired to detect.
Not my words, but from the West Midlands Traffic Police blog
https://trafficwmp.wordpress.com/2016/0 ... -new-dawn/

Trying to catch up with a group last year it struck me that the most noticeable rider was the one in a navy jersey with a yellow band, this was amongst those in everything from flo yellow to the blackest of black. I'm not saying noticeable = safer, but it surprised me just how much they stood out.



One of the issues of HiViz is that it isn't.

As your anecdote suggests. it is in contrast with the surroundings.

You really need half a dozen tops for each ride to change each time the background changes and guarantee maximum visibility

My impression as a driver (and it is what the driver sees that matters here) is that bright yellow clothing / hi-viz makes vulnerable road users more noticeable much more often than not, but black clothing makes the wearer inconspicuous much more often than not. So when I go out on a bike I act on that because I want to be as easily seen as some hi-vizzed cyclist I saw when I was driving. If another cyclist chooses to wear black, well that is their business.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 29 Apr 2019, 9:45am
by Bmblbzzz
mnichols wrote:I've found my old waterproof :-) Obviously it was in an old sock. Can't think why I didn't look there in the first place ;-)

The problem was I haven't used it since last summer, when I switched to slightly thicker, winter waterproof.

The old one is a mostly red, Gore packable. Quite old now, but can't believe how much I missed it. Finding it was like bumping into an old friend - we've done quite a few trips together!

Slipping it on I remembered the confidence I get from putting on a solid slab of red. Makes me feel that people can see me. Maybe the science does or doesn't back it up, but it gives me a bit more confidence in the rain.

The new shakedry is a bit, but not a lot, smaller and lighter and probably more breathable, but until it comes in brighter colours then I'm sticking to this one.

Happy Days!

Hooray! :D

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 29 Apr 2019, 9:46am
by Bmblbzzz
mattsccm wrote:Some years back, got to be the last century or more, a mountain rescue organisation of something like that (RAF S&R?) pointed out that the bright red/orange water proof often used by bumblies as a "safety" feature was nothing of the sort. Visual pollution close up but from afar the tone blended in to the hills whereas blue, especially lighter blue stood out well.
I guess its the idea of seeing the colour as if its in a black and white photo.

Oi! Or even, oi!

And more seriously, general use of terms derogatory of competence doesn't help anything, least of all the incompetent people it's aimed at.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 29 Apr 2019, 10:02am
by squeaker
mattheus wrote:


What an excellent blog! From 2016, but worth reading annually by road users (and the M-of-Transport ... )

:)
Agreed. This sentence really stood out
Well if drivers expect to be prosecuted for committing offences they suddenly stop committing them, unsurprising correlation I know but it’s the truth.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 29 Apr 2019, 10:10am
by mjr
pwa wrote:My impression as a driver (and it is what the driver sees that matters here) [...]

as a driver who cycles in a yellow jacket, you mean. You probably readily associate hi viz with cycling but I suspect far more drivers associate it with static or walking workers.

To be blunt, I hope that no-one here is a driver we need to worry about, who close passes cycles no matter what they're wearing.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 29 Apr 2019, 10:39am
by pwa
mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:My impression as a driver (and it is what the driver sees that matters here) [...]

as a driver who cycles in a yellow jacket, you mean. You probably readily associate hi viz with cycling but I suspect far more drivers associate it with static or walking workers.

To be blunt, I hope that no-one here is a driver we need to worry about, who close passes cycles no matter what they're wearing.

I know what I find easy to notice when driving and I act on that when I cycle. So yes, I do end up cycling with some yellow clothing a lot of the time. Simple as that. I don't see it as the answer to every problem on the roads.

Do non-cycling motorists read yellow tops as "road worker" or "litter picker"? I don't honestly know for sure. But I'd be surprised if that were the case around here. We have a lot of country roads / lanes here and most of the yellow vests / tops I see there are on cyclists.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 29 Apr 2019, 11:00am
by thirdcrank
We could expand the helmet sub-section of the forum to include hi-viz, or perhaps have a parallel sub-section.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 29 Apr 2019, 11:21am
by pwa
thirdcrank wrote:We could expand the helmet sub-section of the forum to include hi-viz, or perhaps have a parallel sub-section.

Not sure it's worth it. It comes up once in a while then fizzles out.

Re: Black Waterproof jackets - a bad idea?

Posted: 29 Apr 2019, 11:27am
by slowster
mjr wrote:And I think it would be far better to avoid being in that situation by fitting the legally required reflective parts than farting around changing their clothes for other colours!

I am not replying to your continued humblebragging about driving beyond saying I disagree with your interpretations but they are not really on topic IMO.

During the daytime there is no requirement to have reflective parts.

As I have said, I am making no claims to be a better driver, I am relaying what I was told by a driving instructor about what does make better safer driving according to the Advanced Driving handbook.

My comments are on topic, because most of the cyclists who buy the expensive and fragile Shakedry type of waterproof the OP was considering will be road riders on racing bikes. The same category of riders of which a significant percentage ride in my area in all black kit, and consequently are harder to spot. This is especially noticeable on the main road used by cyclists in my area: a shaded tree lined road with cars travelling at 60mph. Being able to spot a cyclist 300m or 400m away on that road instead of, say, 100m away makes a huge difference to the reaction time. Without sufficient reaction time, there are only two likely outcomes:

- hard braking by the driver (unlikely because of the probability of it resulting in being shunted by cars travelling close behind at similar speed)
- a close pass at high speed.