E Bike - speeding?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
brynpoeth
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby brynpoeth » 13 Aug 2019, 1:46am

Cugel wrote:..
You're not interested in learning. You're interested in sticking doggedly (even dogmatically) to a bald and uniformed opinion. This is not an attractive habit.

Cugel

Even you, super Cugel, do not know what I think :wink:

I think I shall withdraw and observe in the hope of becoming an independent expert, rather like a male gynaecologist, or a criminologist, the former cannae experience that which he studies, and one
earnestly hopes criminologists do not commit crime
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Cunobelin
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby Cunobelin » 13 Aug 2019, 6:52am

Grandad wrote:
I think e-bikes should be a niche product, not mainstream


They are, just a tiny trickle in the total flow of all other types of bikes

But a massive growth area

Sales rose from 5% of the market in 2015 to 12% in 2016

In the Netherlands, they now outstrip ordinary bike sales for adults!

Oldjohnw
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby Oldjohnw » 13 Aug 2019, 7:21am

Cunobelin wrote:
Grandad wrote:
I think e-bikes should be a niche product, not mainstream


They are, just a tiny trickle in the total flow of all other types of bikes

But a massive growth area

Sales rose from 5% of the market in 2015 to 12% in 2016

In the Netherlands, they now outstrip ordinary bike sales for adults!


In the Netherlands there is a proper infrastructure so that no-one feels intimidated by cars, ebikes or push bikes. That is what we miss here, along with the 'acceptance' of the other mindset (cyclists accept pedestrians and vv, cars accept cyclists and vv, ebikers accept other cyclists and vv etc). So long as we fight for the same space and assume that it is exclusively ours we will have conflict, sadly. We have to share the same, totally inadequate space.
John

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peterb
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby peterb » 13 Aug 2019, 2:17pm

JohnW wrote:
So, in short, I can have some understanding for what Bryn means. Constant 15mph in Greenway/cyclepath/footpath conditions (i.e. Sustrans ethos) isn't always safe for others and can easily lead to higher speeds - remember that there's no max speed limit on our ("proper") bikes.


Remember, constant 15mph on an ebike means constant pedalling, then above that it's much like any other bike (but probably heavier)

JohnW wrote: Putting a statutory speed limit on e-bikes could be a major (and unenforceable) problem, and would affect us all, because it probably wouldn't end there. This is just my opinion, and I'm not going to enter into debate about it, but for what it's worth I think that if someone really NEEDS an e-bike, rather than just wanting a cheap and easily obtainable (and legal) substitute for a motor scooter/bike/car quadcycle then 12mph powered maximum would be fast enough. A lot of adult utility and leisure cycling won't much exceed 12mph on the level (I'm not talking about competition or events, just cycling).


I don't understand why you think that, after a lifetime of cycling, I should be restricted to assistance up to only 12mph. Most of the cyclists I ride with will be exceeding 12 mph within yards of moving off - leisure cyclists, club cyclists, some in their late 70s and 80s. "(I'm not talking about competition or events, just cycling)".
Do you want me to be condemned to short, slow rides for the rest of my cycling days. As I said before, I can push the speed well above that, but nowadays, now I 'NEED' the assistance an e-road bike can give me, my leg power alone can't maintain that over longer distances.

Have you ever ridden an ebike?

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Cugel
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby Cugel » 13 Aug 2019, 3:48pm

peterb wrote:
JohnW wrote:
So, in short, I can have some understanding for what Bryn means. Constant 15mph in Greenway/cyclepath/footpath conditions (i.e. Sustrans ethos) isn't always safe for others and can easily lead to higher speeds - remember that there's no max speed limit on our ("proper") bikes.


Remember, constant 15mph on an ebike means constant pedalling, then above that it's much like any other bike (but probably heavier)

JohnW wrote: Putting a statutory speed limit on e-bikes could be a major (and unenforceable) problem, and would affect us all, because it probably wouldn't end there. This is just my opinion, and I'm not going to enter into debate about it, but for what it's worth I think that if someone really NEEDS an e-bike, rather than just wanting a cheap and easily obtainable (and legal) substitute for a motor scooter/bike/car quadcycle then 12mph powered maximum would be fast enough. A lot of adult utility and leisure cycling won't much exceed 12mph on the level (I'm not talking about competition or events, just cycling).


I don't understand why you think that, after a lifetime of cycling, I should be restricted to assistance up to only 12mph. Most of the cyclists I ride with will be exceeding 12 mph within yards of moving off - leisure cyclists, club cyclists, some in their late 70s and 80s. "(I'm not talking about competition or events, just cycling)".
Do you want me to be condemned to short, slow rides for the rest of my cycling days. As I said before, I can push the speed well above that, but nowadays, now I 'NEED' the assistance an e-road bike can give me, my leg power alone can't maintain that over longer distances.

Have you ever ridden an ebike?


Today I rode out on the ladywife's e-bike just to remind myself of various features that come with e-bike riding, along with the contrast to riding an ordinary bike. A mere 10 mile ride but including main roads, narrow country roads and lots of hills both up & down (300M climbing and the same in descent). Also through two small villages and a town.

Going up on a wide B road from 96M above sea level to 200M in about a mile, I used the lowest level of assistance but only on the steeper bits. I estimate I was then doing 9-12mph rather than the 6-9mph I would do on an ordinary bike. Not much faster for the same effort on my part, then. On a narrow road with several steep stretches of 50 to 100M, up to 400M, I used the second level of assistance. This too allowed me to go about 3-4mph faster than I would unassisted - well under 15.5mph at all times.

In both cases, I was never going over 15.5mph with the motor on because it switches off automatically at that speed or above.. On the less steep bits I could manage 15.5mph or a bit more but the motor no longer assists then, so the bike becomes an ordinary bike albeit one 7kg heavier than normal. In places, I switched the motor off despite going under 15.5mph as I was still going up at a reasonable speed (under 15.5mph) for an effort less than maximum.

Going back down, I used no assistance at all, since the speed was generally above 15.5mph anyway and there's no need for a motor if gravity is sucking at you rather than pushing you in the face.

I estimate that I went 'round this 10 mile ride about 8-10 minutes faster than I would unassisted. If I weighed a stone less or was a bit fitter, I could have gone 'round on an ordinary bike in about the same time. The ordinary bike, don't forget, is 7Kg lighter than the e-bike.

My overall conclusion from this ride is that an e-bike has the same effect as you yourself losing weight, and/or getting fitter, and using an ordinary bike. I was just as energy-depleted when I got back than I am if I go out on an ordinary bike. The rider of an e-bike can either go faster and make the same effort as on an ordinary bike; or go at the same average speed and pedal a bit less hard to do so.

Those who think e-bikes are some sort of motorbike need to ride one so they can have the experience, when they will realise they didn't know what they were talking about in proposing that an e-bike is some sort of powerful vroomer that will go about running over grannies and children.

So there. :-)

Cugel

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al_yrpal
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby al_yrpal » 13 Aug 2019, 4:33pm

Cugel wrote:Today I rode out on the ladywife's e-bike


Does it have a basket on the front and one of those plastic skirt protectors on the rear wheel :lol:

Al
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Cunobelin
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby Cunobelin » 13 Aug 2019, 5:47pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
Grandad wrote:
They are, just a tiny trickle in the total flow of all other types of bikes

But a massive growth area

Sales rose from 5% of the market in 2015 to 12% in 2016

In the Netherlands, they now outstrip ordinary bike sales for adults!


In the Netherlands there is a proper infrastructure so that no-one feels intimidated by cars, ebikes or push bikes. That is what we miss here, along with the 'acceptance' of the other mindset (cyclists accept pedestrians and vv, cars accept cyclists and vv, ebikers accept other cyclists and vv etc). So long as we fight for the same space and assume that it is exclusively ours we will have conflict, sadly. We have to share the same, totally inadequate space.


It is the case that most do, it is only a few zealots who will not accept an e-bike travelling at the same speed that they are.

JohnW
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby JohnW » 13 Aug 2019, 9:57pm

peterb wrote:...............................I don't understand why you think that, after a lifetime of cycling, I should be restricted to assistance up to only 12mph. Most of the cyclists I ride with will be exceeding 12 mph within yards of moving off - leisure cyclists, club cyclists, some in their late 70s and 80s. "(I'm not talking about competition or events, just cycling)".
Do you want me to be condemned to short, slow rides for the rest of my cycling days. As I said before, I can push the speed well above that, but nowadays, now I 'NEED' the assistance an e-road bike can give me, my leg power alone can't maintain that over longer distances.

Have you ever ridden an e-bike?

Oh dear me - this is getting so personal, isn't it? No I haven't ever ridden an e-bike, that isn't the point and I'm genuinely sorry that I've made you indignant.

I don't think that "after a lifetime of cycling, (you) should be restricted to" anything at all!
And, goodness me, I don't want you "to be condemned to short, slow rides for the rest of (your) cycling days".

I'm not going to go any further with this - talk figures and the world takes offence.

All I'm doing is being aware that that e-bikes in the wrong hands can potentially be an abuse of everyone else's peace and making a humble (and obviously disapproved of) suggestion of what a reasonable speed limit could be to address that problem.

I am not suggesting that you would ever even dream of being anti-social, I am not suggesting any restriction on you personally, don't misunderstand.

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Cunobelin
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby Cunobelin » 14 Aug 2019, 6:14am

JohnW wrote:
peterb wrote:...............................I don't understand why you think that, after a lifetime of cycling, I should be restricted to assistance up to only 12mph. Most of the cyclists I ride with will be exceeding 12 mph within yards of moving off - leisure cyclists, club cyclists, some in their late 70s and 80s. "(I'm not talking about competition or events, just cycling)".
Do you want me to be condemned to short, slow rides for the rest of my cycling days. As I said before, I can push the speed well above that, but nowadays, now I 'NEED' the assistance an e-road bike can give me, my leg power alone can't maintain that over longer distances.

Have you ever ridden an e-bike?

Oh dear me - this is getting so personal, isn't it? No I haven't ever ridden an e-bike, that isn't the point and I'm genuinely sorry that I've made you indignant.

I don't think that "after a lifetime of cycling, (you) should be restricted to" anything at all!
And, goodness me, I don't want you "to be condemned to short, slow rides for the rest of (your) cycling days".

I'm not going to go any further with this - talk figures and the world takes offence.

All I'm doing is being aware that that e-bikes in the wrong hands can potentially be an abuse of everyone else's peace and making a humble (and obviously disapproved of) suggestion of what a reasonable speed limit could be to address that problem.

I am not suggesting that you would ever even dream of being anti-social, I am not suggesting any restriction on you personally, don't misunderstand.



It was a logical and pertinent question. To discuss or advice, knowing the experience of the other person is sensible

One of the main things on this thread has been the total ignorance of e-bikes and some of the bizarre claims made about them.

It also seems that the ones taking a reasoned stance or have supported their claims by evidence or fact are the ones who have experience.

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Cugel
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby Cugel » 14 Aug 2019, 9:44am

JohnW wrote:
peterb wrote:...............................I don't understand why you think that, after a lifetime of cycling, I should be restricted to assistance up to only 12mph. Most of the cyclists I ride with will be exceeding 12 mph within yards of moving off - leisure cyclists, club cyclists, some in their late 70s and 80s. "(I'm not talking about competition or events, just cycling)".
Do you want me to be condemned to short, slow rides for the rest of my cycling days. As I said before, I can push the speed well above that, but nowadays, now I 'NEED' the assistance an e-road bike can give me, my leg power alone can't maintain that over longer distances.

Have you ever ridden an e-bike?

Oh dear me - this is getting so personal, isn't it? No I haven't ever ridden an e-bike, that isn't the point and I'm genuinely sorry that I've made you indignant.

I don't think that "after a lifetime of cycling, (you) should be restricted to" anything at all!
And, goodness me, I don't want you "to be condemned to short, slow rides for the rest of (your) cycling days".

I'm not going to go any further with this - talk figures and the world takes offence.

All I'm doing is being aware that that e-bikes in the wrong hands can potentially be an abuse of everyone else's peace and making a humble (and obviously disapproved of) suggestion of what a reasonable speed limit could be to address that problem.

I am not suggesting that you would ever even dream of being anti-social, I am not suggesting any restriction on you personally, don't misunderstand.


moderated

Your notion that "......being aware that that e-bikes in the wrong hands can potentially be an abuse of everyone else's peace....." is meaningless, as any object in "the wrong hands" can be used to harm others. I was once hit by a soup ladle. Should they all be banned or made of balsa wood?

In practice an e-bike merely enhances your own pedal power. It only does so up to a low speed of 15.5mph. The vast majority of e-bikes go quite slowly (they are heavy / hard to push without the motor) and are ridden far more carefully than the vast majority of faux racing bikes ridden by MAMIL faux racing blokes (and it is generally blokes). You would be better making a case against the dangers of Strava strivers riding intemperately everywhere they go - a problem arising in the rider's attitude, not in their bike.

On the other hand, it is a cogent argument to suggest that the nature of the technology can induce or suppress certain attitudes and behaviours in humans. Cars as currently designed and sold tend to induce aggressive macho behaviour, for example. Copies of Le Tour bicycles can be a bit the same when under the erse of a certain kind of MAMIL or infantile yoof. Do e-bikes induce aggressive peace-shattering behaviours? I would suggest that only the illegal variety do so - those with the speed limiter bypassed or a throttle added or the software reconfigured to make the motor output 500 watts instead of 250 watts max.

But all technologies can be employed illegally. Currently there's a problem with kitchen knives. Should we ban all those too?

I confess I sometimes argue for car-bans.

Cugel

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Cunobelin
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby Cunobelin » 14 Aug 2019, 3:52pm

Knives is easy... follow the US model

Give everyone a kitchen knife, then when you see someone with a knife, you can prevent a stabbing.. by stabbing them

fastpedaller
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby fastpedaller » 14 Aug 2019, 4:33pm

Putting the cat amongst the pigeons......... If (and that's a small word with a big meaning) the Police start 'nicking' folk going too fast on their e-bikes how will it pan out? If I'm on a regular bike going down a steep hill at say 35 mph, and get 'nicked', can I be charged? furious pedaling? surely not if I'm freewheeling, and they can check there's no battery power ans send me on my way. Now Mr Ebike goes down the same hill at 35mph, and isn't pedaling, can he be 'nicked' on the premise that he isn't using his leg power, so (to PC) it must be the motor?

Phil Fouracre
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby Phil Fouracre » 14 Aug 2019, 4:43pm

I do love these ebike threads, I just can’t get my head around how, otherwise, hopefully, intelligent people, can talk so much utter rubbish about ebikes!! but, please carry on :-)
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity

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al_yrpal
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby al_yrpal » 14 Aug 2019, 4:48pm

Phil Fouracre wrote:I do love these ebike threads, I just can’t get my head around how, otherwise, hopefully, intelligent people, can talk so much utter rubbish about ebikes!! but, please carry on :-)


+1 ! :lol:

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

reohn2
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby reohn2 » 14 Aug 2019, 5:24pm

Phil Fouracre wrote:I do love these ebike threads, I just can’t get my head around how, otherwise, hopefully, intelligent people, can talk so much utter rubbish about ebikes!! but, please carry on :-)

I'm afraid it's all due to prejudice,such people simply see e-bikes as "cheating",that's at the bottom of all of it.
They'll wrap it up in rape of the planet,that they're dangerous,that they cause accidents,etc,etc,or any number of other unfounded and plainly ridiculous excuses to hide that prejudice either from peoples they're spouting off to or even themselves,in some instances it's just downright jealousy.
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