Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
reohn2
Posts: 35908
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby reohn2 » 16 Aug 2019, 3:49pm

531colin wrote:Now I think about it, isn't Lemond's "method" inseam x 0.88 = distance from BB axle to the saddle bum-bone dent?

I got my information for the LeMond method from here:- http://veloptimum.net/Velop/documents/1 ... juil10.htm

Edit:-
LeMond Method. Greg LeMond says to multiply your crotch-to-floor measurement by 0.883. This figure was determined in the early 1980s by LeMond's French coach at that time, Cyrille Guimard. Back then, everyone was on cage pedals with toe clips and straps and wearing leather-sole shoes with nailed-on cleats. LeMond recommends subtracting 3 mm from the number produced by his formula if you use clipless pedals. Fred takes off another 2 mm because shoe soles have become thinner, too. Height is measured from the middle of the crank axle along the seat tube to the top of the saddle. Fred's result is a saddle height of 77.2 cm

My dims :- 845 x 0.883 = 746 + 175 crank length = 921.but I didn't remove the 3 and 2mm the writer did,which leaves 916mm,not far away from my own :)
Last edited by reohn2 on 16 Aug 2019, 4:00pm, edited 2 times in total.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

User avatar
531colin
Posts: 12490
Joined: 4 Dec 2009, 6:56pm
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby 531colin » 16 Aug 2019, 3:54pm

yostumpy wrote:I wonder what would have happened if 531Colin had only moved his seat back 10mm and not adjusted the cleats. I also wonder his world famous 'setting up' instructions would now be different, Colin always looked to be too far forward, to me, just my observation.

I needed to stabilise my feet on the pedals so I moved my cleats; what would you have done? Moving the cleats fixed the calves, but loaded the quads.
Once I have ridden in my new position for a decent length of time, I will add something to my bike fit guide. Please accept my heartfelt apologies because I was unable to predict that when I turned 71, the foot position that I had used for the previous 50 years (or thereabouts) would become unworkable. So now my document about bike fit will "evolve" with the ageing of the writer; perhaps predictably.
I don't remember having ridden with you, what is your "observation" of my riding position based on?

User avatar
531colin
Posts: 12490
Joined: 4 Dec 2009, 6:56pm
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby 531colin » 16 Aug 2019, 3:57pm

reohn2 wrote:
531colin wrote:Now I think about it, isn't Lemond's "method" inseam x 0.88 = distance from BB axle to the saddle bum-bone dent?

I got my information for the LeMond method from here:- http://veloptimum.net/Velop/documents/1 ... juil10.htm

Yes, crotch to floor x 0.883
84.5 x 0.883 = 74.6...BB axle to bum bone dent

reohn2
Posts: 35908
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby reohn2 » 16 Aug 2019, 3:59pm

531colin wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
531colin wrote:Now I think about it, isn't Lemond's "method" inseam x 0.88 = distance from BB axle to the saddle bum-bone dent?

I got my information for the LeMond method from here:- http://veloptimum.net/Velop/documents/1 ... juil10.htm

Yes, crotch to floor x 0.883
84.5 x 0.883 = 74.6...BB axle to bum bone dent

See my edit,written as you were posting :wink:
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 10593
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 18 Aug 2019, 10:04pm

Hi,
531colin wrote:OK thanks for that, R2 and Samuel
Samuel confirms (more or less) that moving the saddle back un-loads quads (or loads glutes/hamstrings, which must be the same thing)
R2 is going better having moved cleats....that damned Steve Hogg has a nasty habit of being right!
I'm still fascinated that such small changes in position make such a big difference to how we use various muscle groups.
Maybe someday I'll find confirmation (or rebuttal) of moving the cleats back loading your quads....


My typical stats are-

Inseam - 840 - 845 mm
Shoe Stack with insole - typ 15 - 17 mm
Saddle to top pedal face - typ 915 mm
Saddle BB setback - typ 55 - 60 mm
KOPS achieved.
Pretty standard legs.

In 531colins book I would be regarded as a toe dipper.
But I have what I regard as a natural ankle motion, which means 12 Oclock the ankle is acute (sole to shin) mid 9 Oclock level or 90 degrees and 6 Oclock obtuse, toe dipper :) The acute ankle will always be less than the obtuse from 90 degrees, this is natural for your foot.
If you look at pro riders they mainly fall into two camps, noticeable foot action or hard to notice foot action (Natural Ankling that's the action not me :) )
I.M.O. its a mistake to be toe dipping at top of stroke - calf muscles are tight or short, or dropping heels at bottom - unless you are doing limbering up exercises like froomey on the turbo.

If your saddle is correct for and aft - you should be able to cycle in a comfortable high gear on the flat, (which you could maintain for several miles but not for an hour) Warm up first 30 minutes or so, point your toes consciously and you should feel sensations above the knee (simulates saddle too low).
Now relax for a minute to normal foot motion, now drop your heels, this will stretch the hams (simulates saddle too high), you will feel this.
Both are subtle feelings, pulling in the calves on dropping the heels means lack of subtle calf muscles, do stretches daily.
When I say point your toes drop your heels - do this for the whole stroke, 30 seconds should be enough.
Make no attempt to ankle at all.
Ankling is sub counsious, like when walking / running.

In training when everything is OK - on the flat in an high gear my quads and hams will hurt the same but nothing else, then I know everything is correct.

Any - hot foot - cold feet tight shoes will ruin your foot action and the knees normally complain first.
Ball off foot over the pedal spindle with make you claw your toes, leave that for track riders.
Steve hogg gets it right as said.

531colin I would regard as his feet are too flat at bottom of stroke from his pics bike set up.
But if he has been comfortable for a long time then that's all right, I do wonder if his pic on bike setup was a static one :?:
If so do a vid on a turbo and select all cadence and even standing / high gears too, then take stills, it might surprise you...
On latest sore quads, his bike hasent changed so must be a weakening through old age, I will be there soon for sure :P
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

User avatar
horizon
Posts: 9565
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Cornwall

Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby horizon » 18 Aug 2019, 11:50pm

Am I right in thinking that in all those years in the wilderness trying to find large toe clips (until I switched to cleats) and installing VK adaptors on all my bikes (and thus struggling to reach the bars until I found really short stems), I was actually on the right lines? Cleats back, saddle back = power and comfort.
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)

User avatar
531colin
Posts: 12490
Joined: 4 Dec 2009, 6:56pm
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby 531colin » 19 Aug 2019, 7:14pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:……..
531colin I would regard as his feet are too flat at bottom of stroke from his pics bike set up.
But if he has been comfortable for a long time then that's all right, I do wonder if his pic on bike setup was a static one :?: …….
On latest sore quads, his bike hasent changed so must be a weakening through old age, I will be there soon for sure :P


Compared to most of the people I see on the road wearing "the uniform" (drop bars, helmet, lycra) I would agree, I sit lower than most. Most seem to me to be "toe down" for at least part of the downstroke, and some are toe down all the time. It may be because riders want an aero position, but lack the flexibility/core strength/whatever of the pros and so in order to get down they basically rotate around the pedal spindle; saddle goes up and forward, bars go down and forward, feet rotate. Any road up, it seems to me that a high saddle is the current fashion, I am probably stuck in the sixties for saddle height fashion.
If I raised my saddle, then I would almost certainly point my toes in order to retain the (same) bend in my knee at the bottom.**
As far as I recall, nobody has ever explained to me why having my saddle higher so that I point my toes at the bottom would make me a better rider."""
In my bike fit piece, most of the photos where I'm on the turbo are dynamic; not only that, but you can see if I'm making an effort, because I drop my heels (more).
Sore quads seemed to be a result of moving the cleats back, can't have been more than 10mm.
When I get the chance I will try your exercises with toe dipping and heel dropping, it sounds fun....but I may not be able to heel drop much more than do "normally"!

**Steve Hogg reports the opposite phenomenon https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/05/addendum-to-seat-height-how-hard-can-it-be-2/; ie. (some of the) people who were toe dippers with a saddle too high (ie. too high in Steve's opinion) reverted to an "average" action with a lower saddle.
""" Having my heel low at the bottom may not make me a better rider, but I can and do ride over rough surfaces in contact with the saddle but with little weight on it, most of my weight is on my feet, and I am still pedalling. I assume that I raise my heels to do this, but I can't see myself....?

User avatar
531colin
Posts: 12490
Joined: 4 Dec 2009, 6:56pm
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby 531colin » 19 Aug 2019, 7:15pm

horizon wrote:Am I right in thinking that in all those years in the wilderness trying to find large toe clips (until I switched to cleats) and installing VK adaptors on all my bikes (and thus struggling to reach the bars until I found really short stems), I was actually on the right lines? Cleats back, saddle back = power and comfort.

PX have 50mm stems at commodity prices....2 makes, I think.

User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 10593
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 19 Aug 2019, 9:52pm

Hi,
Sorry 531colin, for some reason I mentioned sore quads, and I should not have / worded it wrong in my closing, but I am just re-reading your OP.
You said you moved cleats back and you are now where SH said you should be, If I got that correct? If so then it sounds like you ball of foot was over the pedal spindle before?
If you were fine before your calf problem and you moved your feet forward, and then moved your saddle back not to get sore quads, then I can only deduce that unloading your calves has given you more Ankling action?
Andthis would mean that your dynamic leg length will now be longer.
On the basis I.M.O. that the Ankling action has always been stunted before ( I am still assuming ball over spindle), clawing toes due to having ball of foot to close to the pedal spindle, calves are having to be energised more to stabilise the foot, If you don't get a Natural Ankling action then your legs are effectively shorter dynamically.

So I am assuming that when you moved the saddle back you adjusted the height (moved the saddle around the BB)?
I am thinking that if you have unleashed more Ankling action to the feet, thus lengthening your legs, then the saddle should just go up inline with seat tube, but its possible that rotating back keeping saddle height would have the same effect, that is to say that soreness and localised above the knee indicates saddle too low / too far forward?
Your quad soreness was local or not?

Only sure way to see what happens now is to.....wait for it........another dynamic recording on the turbo.

Its very difficult when you just visual someone even on the box how much they are Ankling or not, I normally try to study stills on the web or box to see how much up and down they are with their feet.
So studying real time live will prove difficult.

Now here's something-
On my recent tour around devon and cornwall, I got patella tedonopathy in the last two days, very minor, no lasting effect and did not stop me cycling.
I have had similar in training and also on my only sportive over Dartmoor on a 46 " gear.

I thought I would measure the saddle for my post further up....................not 916 I recorded or even 915 like I quoted but 905 :o
It would appear that either I did not tighten it enough / the tail bag worked it loose / the seat tube is painted inside and may well have settled / eroded a bit.
I can normally tolerate a drop of a bout 5mm with out any effects, it must of been a gradual drop and I was not working that hard either.
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

slowster
Posts: 938
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby slowster » 21 Aug 2019, 10:48am

If moving clipless cleats back by around 10mm behind the ball of the big toe is potentially advantageous, how does that relate or apply to traditional pedals with toe clips?

Is it the case that with largely flat soled touring shoes used with toe clips the foot can move around so much that different factors are involved?

And what about the old slotted cleats used by racers on caged pedals? One of the methods used to determine where to position those cleats was to ride without the cleats fitted and see where the cage marked the sole, which I suspect tended to give a result close to ball of the big toe over pedal axle. Then again, maybe that was more about the angle of the foot rather than fore and aft positioning, because I suspect that the toe clip would prevent the foot from moving forward much beyond ball of big toe over pedal axle.

I don't recall a great difference in toe clip sizes (usually manufacturers just seemed to offer small or large), but I guess it would be possible to achieve a similar foot position to 10mm behind the ball of the big toe by using some large spacers to fit the toe clip to the pedal . However, I cannot recall seeing mention of anyone, such as a pro racer, doing this.

pwa
Posts: 10263
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby pwa » 21 Aug 2019, 10:51am

slowster wrote:If moving clipless cleats back by around 10mm behind the ball of the big toe is potentially advantageous, how does that relate or apply to traditional pedals with toe clips?

Is it the case that with largely flat soled touring shoes used with toe clips the foot can move around so much that different factors are involved?

And what about the old slotted cleats used by racers on caged pedals? One of the methods used to determine where to position those cleats was to ride without the cleats fitted and see where the cage marked the sole, which I suspect tended to give a result close to ball of the big toe over pedal axle. Then again, maybe that was more about the angle of the foot rather than fore and aft positioning, because I suspect that the toe clip would prevent the foot from moving forward much beyond ball of big toe over pedal axle.

I don't recall a great difference in toe clip sizes (usually manufacturers just seemed to offer small or large), but I guess it would be possible to achieve a similar foot position to 10mm behind the ball of the big toe by using some large spacers to fit the toe clip to the pedal . However, I cannot recall seeing mention of anyone, such as a pro racer, doing this.

If I remember rightly the Shimano triangular shaped pedals (105 etc) with toe clips allowed some forward / backward adjustment on position, which I did make use of when transferring from one family members bike to another.