Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
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531colin
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Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby 531colin » 31 Jul 2019, 4:36pm

I'm never sure what is meant by "ankling".
My father (on flat pedals) used to drop his heel to push the pedal over the top, and raise his heel to claw the pedal back at the bottom....he called that ankling.
Des49 (above) talks about rotating (extending?) the ankle at the bottom of the stroke. I see people doing this, but I don't know why. With cleats you can pull back at the bottom without any ankle gymnastics. Sure you can extend your reach to the pedals by extending your ankle, but isn't it generally held that you get maximum power for minimum muscle work when your knee approaches maximum extension?
I think my feet are generally pretty level through the downstroke, although I drop my heels forcing the gear. Having your feet level seems to be old-fashioned, these days most (club?) cyclists seem to ride toe-down all the time.
To complete my bewilderment, I have seen somebody refer to "reverse ankling" without explanation.
R2, I'm looking forward to your findings!

reohn2
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Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby reohn2 » 31 Jul 2019, 5:30pm

531colin wrote:I'm never sure what is meant by "ankling".
My father (on flat pedals) used to drop his heel to push the pedal over the top, and raise his heel to claw the pedal back at the bottom....he called that ankling.

That's very similar to what I consider ankling.

To complete my bewilderment, I have seen somebody refer to "reverse ankling" without explanation

Equal bewilderment here too :?

R2, I'm looking forward to your findings!

Not been able to get out for a proper ride this week,we'll see what the weather's like on Friday.
I'll let you know,but the new cleat position didn't feel as weird on another test ride around the estate yesterday.
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reohn2
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Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby reohn2 » 3 Aug 2019, 10:59am

I did a 25mile ride yesterday and felt I was able to put more power through the pedals with the new cleat position,it's early days yet so I'll report back when I've ridden a bit more
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reohn2
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Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby reohn2 » 12 Aug 2019, 6:29pm

I've been riding a couple of weeks now with the cleats in the new position.
So far,so very good :) .
I accelerate and climb better than previously,it's not night and day but very noticable,the other plus is that I don't claw my toes as before,but tend to feel I'm spreading them out more and they feel much more comfortable.
Win,Win :D
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Samuel D
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Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby Samuel D » 12 Aug 2019, 9:32pm

On saddle setback versus leg-muscle recruitment, I can say this: when I put my saddle back years ago on 531colin’s recommendation (solving a variety of comfort problems), my buttocks and the muscles at the back of my thighs developed noticeably in the few months afterwards.

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531colin
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Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby 531colin » 12 Aug 2019, 10:31pm

OK thanks for that, R2 and Samuel
Samuel confirms (more or less) that moving the saddle back un-loads quads (or loads glutes/hamstrings, which must be the same thing)
R2 is going better having moved cleats....that damned Steve Hogg has a nasty habit of being right!
I'm still fascinated that such small changes in position make such a big difference to how we use various muscle groups.
Maybe someday I'll find confirmation (or rebuttal) of moving the cleats back loading your quads....

reohn2
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Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby reohn2 » 13 Aug 2019, 8:56am

Colin
I thank you for pointing me/us in the direction of Mr Hogg,it goes to show convention and accepted wisdom isn't necessarily correct :wink:
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yostumpy
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Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby yostumpy » 13 Aug 2019, 11:00pm

I wonder what would have happened if 531Colin had only moved his seat back 10mm and not adjusted the cleats. I also wonder his world famous 'setting up' instructions would now be different, Colin always looked to be too far forward, to me, just my observation.

fastpedaller
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Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby fastpedaller » 15 Aug 2019, 9:47pm

I saw a copy of Cycling weekly 'the comic' as was, in the supermarket today and the headline DIY BIKE FIT caught my eye. Using the 'library facility' :oops: I flicked through the mag, with the intention of buying it if the feature looked useful....... during a scan through I saw the guidance that the Lemond formula be used to set the saddle height and (give them due for saying this be used for a 'starting point') I felt obliged the put the mag back on the shelf, unsold (to me anyway). And to think I used to buy get it eagerly each week many years ago. :(

yostumpy
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Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby yostumpy » 16 Aug 2019, 9:12am

Are you saying you disagree with the Lemond formula?. Mine, by chance, is spot on to this formula.

fastpedaller
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Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby fastpedaller » 16 Aug 2019, 9:46am

yostumpy wrote:Are you saying you disagree with the Lemond formula?. Mine, by chance, is spot on to this formula.


As with all these 'formulas' it's generally agreed that it's not that simple (as applying a mathematical formula), so (albeit with the caveat they added) their inclusion of only this method in the article was IMHO a poor move. I'd prefer colin531's advice elsewhere on this forum, or the 'italian way' which has always been a good guide to me. I'd add that as we are each unique, maybe it's just what 'feels comfortable' to each of us, and no hard rules can be applied? Some have commented to me 'your saddles too low', whilst others (same bike, no adjustment) have suggested my saddle is too high - maybe i take the average and say 'it's just right' :lol:

reohn2
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Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby reohn2 » 16 Aug 2019, 10:25am

Here's some of my measurements:-
My crotch to floor measurement is 84.5cm(book method in barefeet,heels against a wall)

My saddle is set at 91.5cm,175mm crank at BDC in line with the seatube
Nose of saddle is 9.5cm* behind the BB axle(measured with bike on a level surface and a plumbline/spirit level)
This gives me KOPS.

The LeMond method(I've never done the LeMond calcs before) gives me 92cm

*long thighs/femurs
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531colin
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Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby 531colin » 16 Aug 2019, 3:12pm

reohn2 wrote:….My saddle is set at 91.5cm,175mm crank at BDC in line with the seatube.
The LeMond method(I've never done the LeMond calcs before) gives me 92cm …...

Its my recollection that LeMonds "method" measures to the bum bone dent not along the seat tube; for me thats a difference of about 15mm.

reohn2
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Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby reohn2 » 16 Aug 2019, 3:22pm

531colin wrote:
reohn2 wrote:….My saddle is set at 91.5cm,175mm crank at BDC in line with the seatube.
The LeMond method(I've never done the LeMond calcs before) gives me 92cm …...

Its my recollection that LeMonds "method" measures to the bum bone dent not along the seat tube; for me thats a difference of about 15mm.

If it is it's 15mm lower than the saddle top,but I don't think the difference is so much on my saddle,it's somewhere between 5 and 10mm
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531colin
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Re: Does moving the cleats back load your quads?

Postby 531colin » 16 Aug 2019, 3:45pm

Now I think about it, isn't Lemond's "method" inseam x 0.88 = distance from BB axle to the saddle bum-bone dent?