Where is this?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
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andrew_s
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Re: Where is this?

Postby andrew_s » 14 Aug 2019, 10:45pm

geocycle wrote:OK another possible lead....

http://www.wingedwheels.info/PEAK.pdf

Matlock Bath is wrong - it's in a steep-side valley, enough so that there's a cable car to get you up the side these days.
I don't have much faith in Lloc either. The scarp behind in the original photo looks higher than anything visible in the streetview of MacD's.

"Singing Kettle" is a pretty common cafe name. There must be or have been a lot of them.

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Where is this?

Postby Bmblbzzz » 14 Aug 2019, 11:03pm

Yep, pretty common. Google suggests Torquay, Settle, Buckfastleigh, Alfriston, Malvern, Whitby. I suspect all of those are extant now under that name, who knows what others may have come and gone?

pwa
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Re: Where is this?

Postby pwa » 15 Aug 2019, 8:32am

Chris Jeggo wrote:However, your quoted Streetview is not looking roughly north
Another thing: I have just realised that shadows in the flickr photo of the Lloc Singing Kettle prove that it was on the north side of the road, which I had previously assumed because of the position of the commemorative plaque referred to, and therefore facing south(ish).


Correct. My image was looking more to the south and the shadows on the original pic make that impossible.

Chat Noir
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Re: Where is this?

Postby Chat Noir » 15 Aug 2019, 12:45pm

Intriguing.

I live in York so don't often get out as far as the Cleveland Hills but do manage the Howardian Hills, the North York Moors, Wolds and Dales. If I lived in Middlesbrough, the Cleveland Hills would be the way I'd go to the North York Moors, they're the northern edge, to the Yorkshire coast, or going south before turning west into the Dales and back. I have cycled round there enough times to think that might well be approaching the Cleveland Hills from the north but exactly where, can't help. The other thought is somewhere in the Dales, looks as much like a crag as a line of trees along the top of the hill. Finally, looks to me more like snow that's been pushed to the side of the road and melting than a line of rocks. The road looks damp but hard to be certain.

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geocycle
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Re: Where is this?

Postby geocycle » 15 Aug 2019, 1:07pm

Chat Noir wrote:Intriguing.

I live in York so don't often get out as far as the Cleveland Hills but do manage the Howardian Hills, the North York Moors, Wolds and Dales. If I lived in Middlesbrough, the Cleveland Hills would be the way I'd go to the North York Moors, they're the northern edge, to the Yorkshire coast, or going south before turning west into the Dales and back. I have cycled round there enough times to think that might well be approaching the Cleveland Hills from the north but exactly where, can't help. The other thought is somewhere in the Dales, looks as much like a crag as a line of trees along the top of the hill. Finally, looks to me more like snow that's been pushed to the side of the road and melting than a line of rocks. The road looks damp but hard to be certain.

Enjoying the contributions on this one!


I don't think its snow, I know they were harder in the past but they are not dressed for snow and there's nothing in the fields beyond. I do think it could be cliff line in the background. I'm impressed by the evidence for Lloc but I still have a suspicion of somewhere in the Dales.

Mike Sales
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Re: Where is this?

Postby Mike Sales » 15 Aug 2019, 1:09pm

geocycle wrote:I don't think its snow, I know they were harder in the past but they are not dressed for snow and there's nothing in the fields beyond.


I have seen ancient and wiry cyclists in shorts with snow on the ground. In Yorkshire of course.

philsknees
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Re: Where is this?

Postby philsknees » 15 Aug 2019, 1:22pm

'Fraid I've been at it again and after far too much time spent musing I'm about 80% coming round to the location being the Singing Kettle at Lloc. If Foxyrider can confirm that the original photo definitely shows a United Bus Stop plate attached to the pub/restaurant sign I'd probably change my mind back again but as it is, this is my line of thought:-
1) The various images appearing on Google seem mainly to be taken in the period up to the 60's/70's, the OP considers the original image was taken in the 30's.
2) The building's grounds and the pub sign show significant changes in the 30 year period that is probably covered by the images (bigger car park, altered forecourt area, changed/moved/removed sign, large garden created to east). The changes in the surroundings over the additional 50/60 year period to now will be even more significant.
3) The deciduous woodland to the east of the building seems much closer in some images of the actual building/garden than when viewed from McDonalds present site. The b&w images certainly suggest the garden stretches very close to the wooded area.
4)Street View now shows a field between the current McD eatery and the said woodland to the east which isn't evident from the earlier b&w images. That field is/has been for sale recently under a covenant that it isn't to be developed for a drive through "meat product" restaurant/takeaway. Interesting! I'd bet Mcd's bought the field as well as the site they currently occupy and I'd question whether the current building is actually built on the exact location of the old Singing Kettle. Despite the plaque (which admittedly I've not seen) I'd bet that part of the original building and certainly the large eastern garden probably spread across the field that is currently next door. Of course, that's all conjecture but not totally without foundation (no pun intended there :( ) That throws a measure of doubt on the position of the photographer in the original image.
5) I was originally confused by the fact that in the OP image the visible edge of the road (seen behind the 2 left hand figures) appears to slope down from right to left but that was the effect of the tilted image in the OP and if that is taken into consideration the road does in fact seem to mirror the current gradient of the A5026 at that point.
6) Both the surrounding landscape generally and the rocks used ornamentally in the grounds do suggest a typical open country/limestone type location for the OP image which will narrow down the choice from the several Singing Kettle establishments identified on Google and elsewhere, notwithstanding the obvious rural location which precludes town properties such as the Settle one.
7) Over time the grounds of the property have altered sufficiently to cast doubt on the exact position and orientation of the photographer and subjects (even the signpost seems to have been resited or completely removed in some of the images) which, along with uncertainty as to the time of day and month of year of the original image, is for me sufficient to limit the usefulness of information gleaned from the shadows cast by the subjects.
8)Regarding the background views (broadly looking to the South/South East?) I'd suggest that doubt about the exact location of the property and hence the photographer, the direction of the camera and significant changes to the appearance of the landscape over time make it very difficult to make a definite decision either way. Google Earth and Street View now reveal large plantations of fast growing conifers on the background hills which probably originated in/shortly after WWII and which will have significantly altered the appearance of the skyline over the last 70/80 years. I feel the landscape of the area is the right type, the horizon broadly similar but I'd never expect it to match the 1930s photograph exactly and wouldn't discount the location on those grounds alone.
That's it, shoot me down by all means - I'm intrigued by this one !
Foxyrider can you comment on the United Bus sign (if only for my own peace of mind!)
Incidentally, I see the seemingly innocuous old A5026 running past the site of the old building was designated the most dangerous road in Wales in 2017. Picture here of the very spot we're considering:-
https://i2-prod.walesonline.co.uk/incom ... r-Lloc.jpg

MockCyclist
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Re: Where is this?

Postby MockCyclist » 15 Aug 2019, 5:04pm

Can anyone join in? I like a good location puzzle.

I'm struggling with the Lloc location. It's clearly marked as a single building on OS sheet 108 (1961) on the north side of the road, some way from the cross roads. The Flickr image of the gardener with rake at the Singing Kettle, Lloc shows telegraph poles on the opposite side of the road. Even if we ignore the shadow evidence, the op's picture shows what seem to be telegraph wires on the same side and there's a signpost for a junction directly opposite.

So I think we're looking for a pub/restaurant opposite a junction.

Facebook for all it's faults is good for this type of thing. If the op can find a suitable fb community/local picture group in the north east and post it there's a fair chance it'll be solved. That's assuming it's in the UniteD route area.

backnotes
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Re: Where is this?

Postby backnotes » 15 Aug 2019, 6:49pm

You could contact the Teesside DA / Cycling UK Member Group and see if any of their members has any (very) old club runs lists – “Singing Kettle” could feature as a regular 11s / lunch stop? I saw above that someone had contacted a relative who had no memory of a local stop near Middlesborough with this name though, but one of our regular 11s stops has changed names 4 times in last 10 years, so it can happen!

There were several Uniteds for buses. One branch of United operated out of Cleveland / Middlesboro’ until 1948 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Au ... e_Services so that may be closest to home?

These guys http://www.unitedenthusiastsclub.co.uk/ might be the sort of people who would also collect 1930s bus timetables for United in the NE, and with luck “Singing Kettle” might feature in the name of a stop in a timetable? So might be worth asking there. They might also know for sure what shape a United bus stop sign would have been in the 1930s.

Might be worth asking here https://oldtwbustime.wordpress.com/ as well – the examples shown are far more recent than you need, but again bus stops are still often identified by the place and the adjacent pub / hotel etc. name – “Gilesgate Moor, Travellers’ Rest” – that kind of thing so you might get lucky. These are obviously old Tyne and Wear bus timetable enthusiasts, but they may have some good friends who are old Teesside bus timetable enthusiasts!

Good luck!

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Paulatic
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Re: Where is this?

Postby Paulatic » 15 Aug 2019, 7:48pm

A 1930 United sign using a curved top not a bus stop I know but might be the business identity?
6E4B1210-418F-4053-B607-2AEFE74CDC25.jpeg

I can’t make out the bus stop sign in the photo but I do recall United bus stops from 50s and 60s being regular with united on the top and service numbers below it.
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Mick F
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Re: Where is this?

Postby Mick F » 16 Aug 2019, 6:48am

When I first saw the photo, my thoughts regarding the sign was that it was an RAC sign. I bowed down to the idea that it was a United Bus sign, but I still had a nagging doubt about it, and still consider it an RAC sign.

Just copied the photo, played about with the exposure, and I'm positive it's an RAC sign.
2019-08-09_175659crop.jpg
2019-08-09_175659crop.jpg (17.99 KiB) Viewed 239 times
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Paulatic
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Re: Where is this?

Postby Paulatic » 16 Aug 2019, 8:07am

The square on rhs of post is I believe the bus stop sign.
The others shape I can’t find in a RAC search https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=rac+a ... n&hl=en-gb
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Brucey
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Re: Where is this?

Postby Brucey » 16 Aug 2019, 8:36am

re the RAC sign; for many years the 'A' in RAC would be larger than the other letters. Perhaps this is not an official RAC sign, but a non-standard one?

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Mick F
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Re: Where is this?

Postby Mick F » 16 Aug 2019, 8:56am

My memories of RAC signs are that they were octagonal.
Maybe there were a few different designs?
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Where is this?

Postby Bmblbzzz » 16 Aug 2019, 3:59pm

They're all coming up as diamonds for me, but they have squared off corners and you could consider them octagonal. They are strictly octagonal, but not regular octagons. None have that bar across the top. I'm not finding any bus stop signs that distinctive shape either.