Dropped seat stays - good bad or ugly?!

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reohn2
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Re: Dropped seat stays - good bad or ugly?!

Postby reohn2 » 22 Oct 2019, 5:21pm

kylecycler wrote:....Jeff Jones is a genius, although I read an interview where he said, "All the best info is pre-1930s" - he's apparently a great student of bicycle history and he's just applying principles that were known and established a long time ago.

Whatever your leanings, it's seriously worth watching that video all the way through.

I agree,his bicycle concept is thoroughly thought through IMO.
I'm still pondering whether to sell two bikes to buy one of his truss fork steel framesets and build a dream machine,but truth is I like My Genesis Longitude and Vagabond too much ATM.
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kylecycler
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Re: Dropped seat stays - good bad or ugly?!

Postby kylecycler » 22 Oct 2019, 5:43pm

reohn2 wrote:
kylecycler wrote:....Jeff Jones is a genius, although I read an interview where he said, "All the best info is pre-1930s" - he's apparently a great student of bicycle history and he's just applying principles that were known and established a long time ago.

Whatever your leanings, it's seriously worth watching that video all the way through.

I agree,his bicycle concept is thoroughly thought through IMO.
I'm still pondering whether to sell two bikes to buy one of his truss fork steel framesets and build a dream machine,but truth is I like My Genesis Longitude and Vagabond too much ATM.

Well I wish you every success if you go for it, although it seems you've got everything pretty well figured out as it is. I'd love one but I could never afford it, even if I sold everything I've got.

I'll fess up, must be a mid-life crisis or summat, but my dream machine right now is a Chinese carbon frameset 'in the style of' - not a direct copy but at least 'inspired by' - the Scott Foil (hence the apparent obsession above!). I might die in the process but hey ho.

mattsccm
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Re: Dropped seat stays - good bad or ugly?!

Postby mattsccm » 22 Oct 2019, 5:52pm

Of course what we should consider when discussing the merits of such a design is that from a manufacturers point of view long life is irrelevant. Not just bikes. Almost everything. Same for many buyers. Therefore to see it as a problem is largely pointless as to most it doesn't matter.
Of course it would be lovely if we made everything to last for ever but that's not the way the world works and any one of us who has ever bought anything that isn't the most long lasting version of that item possible is playing the game. Indeed buying anything that may wear out ever is. Lets not get too bogged down in this reason for not liking those frames.
The fact that they look awful is far more important!

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kylecycler
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Re: Dropped seat stays - good bad or ugly?!

Postby kylecycler » 22 Oct 2019, 6:50pm

mattsccm wrote:Of course what we should consider when discussing the merits of such a design is that from a manufacturers point of view long life is irrelevant. Not just bikes. Almost everything. Same for many buyers. Therefore to see it as a problem is largely pointless as to most it doesn't matter.
Of course it would be lovely if we made everything to last for ever but that's not the way the world works and any one of us who has ever bought anything that isn't the most long lasting version of that item possible is playing the game. Indeed buying anything that may wear out ever is. Lets not get too bogged down in this reason for not liking those frames.
The fact that they look awful is far more important!

What - you think this looks awful?!

Image

Yeah, well, as Spike Milligan said, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Get it out with Optrex." :D

9494arnold
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Re: Dropped seat stays - good bad or ugly?!

Postby 9494arnold » 22 Oct 2019, 7:16pm

Shout out here for the Thanet Silverlight circa 1940/1950's
The seatstays go past the seat tube and fix in the top tube.
I am sure I read that the idea was the chainstays and the seatstays were the same length ( seatstay to the seat tube)
And the top bit of the seatstay formed a triangle along the top tube, back to the pin and down the seat tube to where
The seatstay crosses.
(I know that Thanet weren't the first to do this)
Re invented in the 90's by GT in their 'Revolutionary Triple Triangle' Design.

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Spinners
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Re: Dropped seat stays - good bad or ugly?!

Postby Spinners » 23 Oct 2019, 7:14am

mercalia wrote:it reminds me of that joke frame some one posted here , a youtube video ofa bike that a guy made using only large springs :lol:



ah was very easy to find again


I'd love to have a go on that! Perhaps not on the main road though.
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Gattonero
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Re: Dropped seat stays - good bad or ugly?!

Postby Gattonero » 23 Oct 2019, 7:55am

Just the fashion of the moment.

I've seen people been bitterly disappointed when their new "gravel bike" cannot fit mudguards or rack due to silly low seatstays... :wink:
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

mattsccm
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Re: Dropped seat stays - good bad or ugly?!

Postby mattsccm » 25 Oct 2019, 7:46am

That Scott is as ugly as sin. Not just the dropped seat stays of course but the overall design added to by the colour and the excessive use of black everywhere.
That "image" /poster /picture on page 2 showing drag %.
Where did it come from? Depending on its context it could be fun/useful but it doesn't give details about, for example, about what type of wheels are being considered.

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Gattonero
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Re: Dropped seat stays - good bad or ugly?!

Postby Gattonero » 25 Oct 2019, 7:59am

mattsccm wrote:That Scott is as ugly as sin...


Yes, but it's AERO! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Just as £40 "aero socks" :lol: :lol: :lol:
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

reohn2
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Re: Dropped seat stays - good bad or ugly?!

Postby reohn2 » 25 Oct 2019, 8:23am

mattsccm wrote:That Scott is as ugly as sin. Not just the dropped seat stays of course but the overall design added to by the colour and the excessive use of black everywhere.
That "image" /poster /picture on page 2 showing drag %.
Where did it come from? Depending on its context it could be fun/useful but it doesn't give details about, for example, about what type of wheels are being considered.

It's fashion innit :wink:
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reohn2
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Re: Dropped seat stays - good bad or ugly?!

Postby reohn2 » 25 Oct 2019, 8:24am

Gattonero wrote:
mattsccm wrote:That Scott is as ugly as sin...


Yes, but it's AERO! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Just as £40 "aero socks" :lol: :lol: :lol:


One word crosswinds :shock:
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Jamesh
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Re: Dropped seat stays - good bad or ugly?!

Postby Jamesh » 25 Oct 2019, 8:25am

Scott foil

I actually think it's a better looking aero bike tbh.

Some are really bad!!!

My midlife crisis is a focus izalco!!!

Cheers James

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Gattonero
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Re: Dropped seat stays - good bad or ugly?!

Postby Gattonero » 25 Oct 2019, 6:12pm

reohn2 wrote:
Gattonero wrote:
mattsccm wrote:That Scott is as ugly as sin...


Yes, but it's AERO! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Just as £40 "aero socks" :lol: :lol: :lol:


One word crosswinds :shock:


One word: pointless (the whole "aero" frenzy)
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

reohn2
Posts: 37484
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Dropped seat stays - good bad or ugly?!

Postby reohn2 » 25 Oct 2019, 6:17pm

Gattonero wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Gattonero wrote:
Yes, but it's AERO! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Just as £40 "aero socks" :lol: :lol: :lol:


One word crosswinds :shock:


One word: pointless (the whole "aero" frenzy)

Quite! :wink:
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kylecycler
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Re: Dropped seat stays - good bad or ugly?!

Postby kylecycler » 25 Oct 2019, 10:43pm

rfryer wrote:Am I the only person to worry about the top tube stretching? Is it made out of toffee?

I don't get that either - I can see how the lower frame flexes, but stretch? It would make sense if the top tube was curved, then it would straighten, but it's not, it's straight. Still, I expect they know what they're doing. I think the animation might be exaggerated though.

I like the Scott Foil's frame shape but I do think the integrated aero stem is fugly - aero road bikes are all getting that now - spoils the look for me.

If the dropped seat stays help with compliance then I suppose they're worthwhile, but as thelawnet's illustration showed, as far as 'aero benefits' go it's such a ridiculously marginal gain that it would only ever be even slightly relevant if you were racing.

If you look closely at the photo of the Scott Foil above, you'll see the rear brake is below the bottom bracket. Putting it there allowed the seat stays to be less stiff - they'd have had to brace the brake to some extent if it was in the usual place, and there was a slight saving on drag, but in practice it's flawed - there's enough movement down there, compared to if it was at the top of the seat stays, for the pads to rub, and it's seriously exposed to the elements. Going over to disc brakes, as on some versions, has solved that problem but introduced others. They're clever engineers at Scott (it's a Swiss company; I thought it was American), but the Foil is more race bike than road bike. Maybe there's not supposed to be a difference but there is and so there should be.