Can anyone identify this head badge?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
Debs
Posts: 662
Joined: 19 May 2017, 7:05pm
Location: Powys

Re: Can anyone identify this head badge?

Postby Debs » 4 Jan 2020, 7:06pm

Seanick wrote:After much interweaving, I reckon it's an early Dawes.
You can see the D, and the torch handle and flame.
Maybe this version had a wreath around it too.


If not a Raleigh red heron, the distressed paintwork patten maybe a red herring :wink:

Brucey
Posts: 36644
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Can anyone identify this head badge?

Postby Brucey » 4 Jan 2020, 7:52pm

it does look very much like a dawes badge but....
- it is unlike any other dawes badge I have seen and
- it appears to have a 'circle strap' motif, in which the end of the strap dangles at about the four o-clock position.

I'm sure I've seen a badge with the strap like this but I'm dashed if I can recall what it might be exactly.

The bike itself looks like any number of roadsters made in the 1950s. The design is not a million miles away from that of a GPO bike, but it lacks the mountings for the front carrier.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 17700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Can anyone identify this head badge?

Postby Vorpal » 5 Jan 2020, 1:36am

Wouldn't a Dawes that old have a metal headbadge? My low end 60s Dawes does.

That does look like a Dawes torch threaded through a D, but it does not look exactly like any Dawes head badge I've seen, either.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

pwa
Posts: 11152
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Can anyone identify this head badge?

Postby pwa » 5 Jan 2020, 7:55am

I imagine a lot of bikes of that era were made relatively locally by small manufacturers, so if it is known where it was first purchased that could be a clue. Also, the badge could just possibly relate to an institutional user rather than the maker. I'm thinking of part of the Services or something like that. There must have been lots of bikes used around army bases at that time.

Nice thread by the way.

Brucey
Posts: 36644
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Can anyone identify this head badge?

Postby Brucey » 5 Jan 2020, 12:46pm

It is quite possible that whoever made the bike also made (or at least tendered for) the GPO contract. Amongst the (currently) lesser-known companies who made GPO bikes is 'C.W.S.' (co-operative wholesale society). They made bikes up to 1960. There is lots of info about them here;

https://oldbike.eu/1935-cws-cooperative-society-federal-post-office-inspectors-bicycle/

pwa's mention of an institional badge might be right; I am pretty sure some regimental badges have the 'loop strap' motif in one form or another.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Debs
Posts: 662
Joined: 19 May 2017, 7:05pm
Location: Powys

Re: Can anyone identify this head badge?

Postby Debs » 5 Jan 2020, 1:35pm

Does the bike in question have any frame numbers/letters stamped anyway [ like under the bottom bracket ] that may help identify the manufacturer?

Brucey
Posts: 36644
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Can anyone identify this head badge?

Postby Brucey » 5 Jan 2020, 1:49pm

you can see the frame number stamped on the LH side of the seat lug. This was common practice amongst many manufacturers at the time, and (for example) nearly all GPO bikes are marked this way.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Seanick
Posts: 8
Joined: 1 Jan 2020, 9:07pm

Re: Can anyone identify this head badge?

Postby Seanick » 5 Jan 2020, 9:58pm

I took some better pics today.
The first is as it is.
The second is with a little quality highlighting.
The third is the earliest Dawes head badge I can find.
I think it has a Philips crank.

Where is the best place to buy a new pair of wheels? EBay?
Thanks, Nick.

DSC_4219.JPG


IMG_20200105_215351.jpg


Screenshot_20200105-205350.png

Brucey
Posts: 36644
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Can anyone identify this head badge?

Postby Brucey » 5 Jan 2020, 10:10pm

what size tyres do you want to use? I suspect that originally you would have had either

26 x 1-3/8" (590mm)

or

26 x 1 -1/2" (584mm)

Modern chrome steel Westwood rims (for stirrup type brakes) in those sizes exist but are usually made in India and the chrome plate itself is of very low quality; I have seen five year old wheels of this type which are rustier than yours are. Many are so far out of round when new that braking is never acceptable.

Some folk would take the opportunity to update the bike with hub brakes, hub gears etc, but you may be after originality.

FWIW I'm not sure that Dawes even made roadsters of the type you have, and if they did, they would most likely have had a badge not a transfer.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Debs
Posts: 662
Joined: 19 May 2017, 7:05pm
Location: Powys

Re: Can anyone identify this head badge?

Postby Debs » 5 Jan 2020, 10:39pm

The existing spoke count is 32 front & 40 rear, is that typical of bikes of this age?

If it were my restoration i'd get a new pair make up from a pro wheel builder who can advise about which rim to use.
Some rim manufacturers offer a custom paint job which could help to keep a strong but modern lighter rim choice in keeping with the vintage design.

The only thing i'd buy off eBay is a replacement head tube badge. It does indeed look very much like it is a Dawes :D

What colour will this bike become next?

Seanick
Posts: 8
Joined: 1 Jan 2020, 9:07pm

Re: Can anyone identify this head badge?

Postby Seanick » 6 Jan 2020, 10:43pm

Thank you very much so far for all your replies, it's been really helpful and very interesting!

I did wonder weather it was made by one company then sold to another, being lightly re-branded in the process.

Colour plans? Back to black all over. I am a boatbuilder, and we spray in our w/shop. Not sure about the handle bars. I don't think they were ever chromed. No sign of it at all.
Brake upgrade? When I cycled it around Paris, including the Arc De Triumph, I learnt 'pas de friens', and shouted it quite loudly!!
Wheels. Tyres are 26 x 1 3/8"
Front rim has 31 stainless spokes.
Rear rim has 39 rusty spokes, with the nice little Oiler with the spring lid in the middle.
Bottom crank is wobbly, and needs big love.

Apart from the Indian Chrome wheels, there are Dutch aluminium rims available, then I could use the original hubs. I can take the buckle out of a wheel, but have never built one up from scratch. How hard can it be? :-))
Frame number :

DSC_4222.JPG


Z 3719?

Thank you all again for your input, much appreciated!

Brucey
Posts: 36644
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Can anyone identify this head badge?

Postby Brucey » 7 Jan 2020, 12:21am

can you get aluminium rims in 32 and 40 drillings like you need? Are they westwood pattern like you need? If the answer is 'no' to either question then you need to think about different hubs and/or brakes.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

pwa
Posts: 11152
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Can anyone identify this head badge?

Postby pwa » 7 Jan 2020, 8:55am

I suggest that the character of the bike would suit drum brakes.

backnotes
Posts: 105
Joined: 16 Jan 2011, 8:36am

Re: Can anyone identify this head badge?

Postby backnotes » 7 Jan 2020, 12:45pm

There's a "Dawes roadster ladies rod brake bike" listed on eBay at the moment that suggests that Dawes may have once made "everyday" bikes with rod brakes and what looks like a transfer rather than a metal badge on the head tube.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1945-55-RARE ... 3489662703

There's no head-on view of the badge at the front, but here's a close-up of the Dawes transfer on the rear mudguard, and if you squint hard enough it looks a bit like the "Turin shroud" version as enhanced above.

PS - I suspect from the close-up that the LH bottom bracket cup could maybe do with a drop or two of threadlock!

MikeF
Posts: 3810
Joined: 11 Nov 2012, 9:24am
Location: On the borders of the four South East Counties

Re: Can anyone identify this head badge?

Postby MikeF » 7 Jan 2020, 1:21pm

Debs wrote:The existing spoke count is 32 front & 40 rear, is that typical of bikes of this age?


That was pretty standard when I was young.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master