Re: Recycling helmets (helmets sub-forum)

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
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Gattonero
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Re: Recycling helmets (helmets sub-forum)

Postby Gattonero » 8 Jan 2020, 8:07am

foxyrider wrote:
Gattonero wrote:
john1B wrote:Hi, Does anyone in UK know the best way to dispose of worn out cycling helmets? Some say, dismantle into separate categories of plastic, recycle the outer and send polystyrene inner to tip for burial others say send the complete helmet to the waste tip for burial. J;-)


Good post!
I never thought about it, perhaps worth asking shops if they can get manufacturers to ship old helmets in bulk to the original factory?


better still - stop buying the wretched things! :lol:


:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
Though I'm all for the freedom of use them, because we should all have the right to leave home and be back in one piece and not injured because of someone else's fault, thus not having manfatory protection devices; to advocate for not using protections at all, whatever the circumstances are, is plain silly. I.e., proper mountain bike riding (not a flat bridleway!) without a helmet is just stupid.
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Recycling helmets

Postby Gattonero » 18 Feb 2020, 8:18am

[XAP]Bob wrote:
Gattonero wrote:Though I'm all for the freedom of use them, because we should all have the right to leave home and be back in one piece and not injured because of someone else's fault, thus not having manfatory protection devices; to advocate for not using protections at all, whatever the circumstances are, is plain silly. I.e., proper mountain bike riding (not a flat bridleway!) without a helmet is just stupid.


Do you have any evidence that the supposed protection device actually offers significant protection?

Else you are effectively doing the modern version of criticising people for advocating against carrying a rabbit's foot.


Well, yes there is evidence, called "tests" and especially "real use". I know many people that are still alive right because their helmet cracked instead of ther head in a crash.
Of course, as I said, it's not "silver bullet". But they can do the trick, and this is a good thing: it all can help.

(said by someone who does commute every day without a helmet!)
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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Re: Recycling helmets

Postby mjr » 18 Feb 2020, 9:16am

Gattonero wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
Do you have any evidence that the supposed protection device actually offers significant protection?

Else you are effectively doing the modern version of criticising people for advocating against carrying a rabbit's foot.


Well, yes there is evidence, called "tests" and especially "real use". I know many people that are still alive right because their helmet cracked instead of ther head in a crash.

Oh no you don't. 1. If it cracked instead of crushing, it failed to work as tested. 2. The "saved" outnumber all head injuries by at least a factor of ten despite usage being less than a third. 3. You seem to have ignored the "significant" see Goldacre and Spiegelhalter's article in BMJ. 4. There's a whole sub forum for this discussion, so do you have anything more to say about recycling them? I stopped using years ago but still have two to recycle when possible.
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Re: Recycling helmets

Postby Gattonero » 18 Feb 2020, 2:17pm

mjr wrote:
Gattonero wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
Do you have any evidence that the supposed protection device actually offers significant protection?

Else you are effectively doing the modern version of criticising people for advocating against carrying a rabbit's foot.


Well, yes there is evidence, called "tests" and especially "real use". I know many people that are still alive right because their helmet cracked instead of ther head in a crash.

Oh no you don't. 1. If it cracked instead of crushing, it failed to work as tested. 2. The "saved" outnumber all head injuries by at least a factor of ten despite usage being less than a third. 3. You seem to have ignored the "significant" see Goldacre and Spiegelhalter's article in BMJ. 4. There's a whole sub forum for this discussion, so do you have anything more to say about recycling them? I stopped using years ago but still have two to recycle when possible.


Oh I'm truly sorry if I have used the wrong word.
But as usual, I am a man who is convinced by what his eyes do see, not by what does he read. Just go to races and see people crashing, if they weren't suing a helmet....
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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Re: Recycling helmets

Postby mattheus » 18 Feb 2020, 2:28pm

Gattonero wrote:But as usual, I am a man who is convinced by what his eyes do see, not by what does he read. Just go to races and see people crashing, if they weren't suing a helmet....


actually, you could learn about races and helmets by watching internet videos of races from before helmet compulsion, if reading really isn't your thing. And then maybe discuss what you find on the HELMET FORUM? I'm looking forward to your comments :)

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Re: Recycling helmets (helmets sub-forum)

Postby foxyrider » 18 Feb 2020, 8:34pm

Gattonero wrote:
foxyrider wrote:
Gattonero wrote:
Good post!
I never thought about it, perhaps worth asking shops if they can get manufacturers to ship old helmets in bulk to the original factory?


better still - stop buying the wretched things! :lol:


:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
Though I'm all for the freedom of use them, because we should all have the right to leave home and be back in one piece and not injured because of someone else's fault, thus not having manfatory protection devices; to advocate for not using protections at all, whatever the circumstances are, is plain silly. I.e., proper mountain bike riding (not a flat bridleway!) without a helmet is just stupid.


i did not say 'do not use a helmet', if it is appropriate or mandatory of course you should wear one. The point of this thread is that the materials used in most helmets are currently not widely recyclable, however some are. If we all stopped buying the non recyclable helmets the mfrs would act pretty darn quick, just look how quickly other 'packaging' and even stuff like straws has changed from bad plastic to recyclable materials due in large part to consumer demand.

So if you think its appropriate to wear a helmet, do so with my blessing :wink: but do question whether the product you buy is 'green'.
Convention? what's that then?
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Re: Recycling helmets (helmets sub-forum)

Postby Gattonero » 2 Mar 2020, 8:11am

Talking of helmets seems to be a fire-starter!

Not sure I should be flattered or worried as you picked out my comments out of all? Either way, I think I should reconsider my first comment about re-sending the materials: after thinking about home recycling, expanded foam materials are certainly not cost-effective to be sent somewhere due to the large volume for little amount of material that can actually be recycled.
So, aside from the helmet debate, what are the options for a local recycling of foam/expanded plastic in general? :?:
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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Re: Recycling helmets (helmets sub-forum)

Postby Tangled Metal » 2 Mar 2020, 8:37am

We solved the problem for our son. He took his helmet to school and never saw it again. If only he had grown out of it first instead of having just bought it for school cycling lessons (in which he learnt nothing new).

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Re: Recycling helmets

Postby pjclinch » 2 Mar 2020, 12:32pm

Gattonero wrote:
mjr wrote:
Gattonero wrote:
Well, yes there is evidence, called "tests" and especially "real use". I know many people that are still alive right because their helmet cracked instead of ther head in a crash.

Oh no you don't. 1. If it cracked instead of crushing, it failed to work as tested. 2. The "saved" outnumber all head injuries by at least a factor of ten despite usage being less than a third. 3. You seem to have ignored the "significant" see Goldacre and Spiegelhalter's article in BMJ. 4. There's a whole sub forum for this discussion, so do you have anything more to say about recycling them? I stopped using years ago but still have two to recycle when possible.


Oh I'm truly sorry if I have used the wrong word.
But as usual, I am a man who is convinced by what his eyes do see, not by what does he read. Just go to races and see people crashing, if they weren't suing a helmet....


Do an experiment. Take something remarkably hard like a human skull and then coat it in something soft, say expanded polystyrene. Bang it about a bit.

Can you foresee any possible scenarios where the polystyrene breaks but the skull doesn't?

A cracked EN1078 hat shows the impact had more energy than an EN1078 hat can take without breaking (it's meant to compact, not to break, in order to absorb energy). It is not an indication that the impact had more energy than a skull can take without breaking.
The next assumption is generally along the lines of saying one must be better off in those instances where the hat makes the difference between a skull-smashing whack and not, but it's not that simple. At impact energies that will smash a skull a helmet will generally fail in brittle fracture mode (i.e., cracking) very quickly and absorb very little energy.

A bike helmet is designed to mitigate minor injuries, mainly so a rider can get back on and finish their race rather than abandoning while feeling a bit dazed. Helmets are particularly designed to do this for low energy impacts, notably the vertical component of a fall to the ground. This is, of course, exactly the sort of fall that skulls have evolved over a few million years to resist, so they're pretty good at it. You'll be less uncomfortable whacking your head in a helmet in a typical case, but chances of it saving you from a certain fractured skull are far, far lower than your wording suggests.

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Re: Recycling helmets (helmets sub-forum)

Postby fullupandslowingdown » 2 Mar 2020, 8:18pm

I once dropped a camera lens on the ground. The UV filter cracked but the lens was undamaged. I do wonder if the impact energy absorbed by the filter breaking, saved the lens from damage.
I have UV filters fitted to most of my lenses, not so much because of the deadly UV we're been fried in, but it's easier to replace a UV filter at £15 than a lens at £350 if I scratch it, particularly when cleaning it.

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Re: Recycling helmets (helmets sub-forum)

Postby Wanlock Dod » 2 Mar 2020, 9:39pm

Gattonero wrote:... what are the options for a local recycling of foam/expanded plastic in general? :?:

Incineration with energy recovery at a plant that complies with the appropriate emission standards is the best waste disposal option for polystyrene because it has a high calorific value and as noted above is not recyclable.
fullupandslowingdown wrote:I have UV filters fitted to most of my lenses,... it's easier to replace a UV filter at £15 than a lens at £350 if I scratch it, particularly when cleaning it.

This does seem like an especially appropriate analogy given that cycle helmets are designed to protect against minor injuries like superficial cuts and grazes, and presumably also scratches.

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Re: Recycling helmets (helmets sub-forum)

Postby pjclinch » 2 Mar 2020, 10:08pm

fullupandslowingdown wrote:I once dropped a camera lens on the ground. The UV filter cracked but the lens was undamaged. I do wonder if the impact energy absorbed by the filter breaking, saved the lens from damage.
I have UV filters fitted to most of my lenses, not so much because of the deadly UV we're been fried in, but it's easier to replace a UV filter at £15 than a lens at £350 if I scratch it, particularly when cleaning it.


The Bad Analogy Police want words.

Camera lenses are brittle glass designed for optical properties and not to protect the inside of a camera.
Skulls are tough bone and have evolved to protect the brain. They have a very long track record of doing a good job.

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Re: Recycling helmets (helmets sub-forum)

Postby fullupandslowingdown » 2 Mar 2020, 10:55pm

pjclinch wrote:The Bad Analogy Police want words.

Camera lenses are brittle glass designed for optical properties and not to protect the inside of a camera.
Skulls are tough bone and have evolved to protect the brain. They have a very long track record of doing a good job.

Pete.


Not guilty gov, I was speeding the other direction, anyway, anyway, camera? the anti-aliasing filter might be considered as some protection to the camera sensor. In theory at least if you scratch it, it can be replaced rather than a much more expensive sensor. Anyone done an IR conversion by the way? I was thinking one day of trying it with an old D70 as I saw the instructions once in practical photographer.

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Re: Recycling helmets (helmets sub-forum)

Postby The utility cyclist » 2 Mar 2020, 11:49pm

fullupandslowingdown wrote:I once dropped a camera lens on the ground. The UV filter cracked but the lens was undamaged. I do wonder if the impact energy absorbed by the filter breaking, saved the lens from damage.
I have UV filters fitted to most of my lenses, not so much because of the deadly UV we're been fried in, but it's easier to replace a UV filter at £15 than a lens at £350 if I scratch it, particularly when cleaning it.

Unless it was test dropped on a curved anvil shaped object as you do in real life :mrgreen:, from a specified height with a lens attached we'll never really know the protective values of said filter :lol:
Maybe it proves that the lens is far more robust than the filter and the filter is just feeble at getting a light smacking around.
Best advice is don't drop your camera lens 8)

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Re: Recycling helmets (helmets sub-forum)

Postby mjr » 3 Mar 2020, 9:16am

The utility cyclist wrote:Unless it was test dropped on a curved anvil shaped object as you do in real life :mrgreen:, from a specified height with a lens attached we'll never really know the protective values of said filter :lol:

Only the Snell lens-smashing test still uses a curved anvil. EuroNorm only requires flat and straight-edge ;)
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