Safety Standards Post Brexit

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby Brucey » 15 Feb 2020, 8:45pm

FWIW our cycle standards have always been as good or (usually) far better than most developed countries, and I see no reason why this should change. As for all those 'good quality bikes sold in other countries' they include adult bicycles with only one brake and other horrors like that. We have never allowed rubbish like that to be sold and we never will.

I've had some involvement in drafting EU standards and very often, it has been a question of a few countries - with a well-developed industrial base and standards infrastructure- dragging everyone else up to a half-decent level. The primary countries doing the dragging are often the UK and Germany; new EU standards have been (IME) liable to be about 90% derived from previous BS and DIN standards. Most of the extant standards have been done; there's just new stuff (for whole new technologies we don't yet know about yet) and revisions to extant EU standards to worry about.

I'm sure there will be good things and bad things to come. One thing I hope they do is enforce the extant UK rules properly regarding things like car headlights and car handbrakes. The headlight situation is ridiculous and the handbrake situation isn't much better; the handbrake is meant to be an emergency brake, which to my mind means that it should be failsafe, i.e. manually operated. IMV electronic handbrakes wouldn't qualify if they applied the spirit and the letter of the law.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bmblbzzz
Posts: 3083
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby Bmblbzzz » 15 Feb 2020, 9:43pm

Safety per se is unlikely to be an issue. Quality is.

pete75
Posts: 12858
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby pete75 » 18 Feb 2020, 1:09pm

Brucey wrote:FWIW our cycle standards have always been as good or (usually) far better than most developed countries, and I see no reason why this should change. As for all those 'good quality bikes sold in other countries' they include adult bicycles with only one brake and other horrors like that. We have never allowed rubbish like that to be sold and we never will.

I've had some involvement in drafting EU standards and very often, it has been a question of a few countries - with a well-developed industrial base and standards infrastructure- dragging everyone else up to a half-decent level. The primary countries doing the dragging are often the UK and Germany; new EU standards have been (IME) liable to be about 90% derived from previous BS and DIN standards. Most of the extant standards have been done; there's just new stuff (for whole new technologies we don't yet know about yet) and revisions to extant EU standards to worry about.

I'm sure there will be good things and bad things to come. One thing I hope they do is enforce the extant UK rules properly regarding things like car headlights and car handbrakes. The headlight situation is ridiculous and the handbrake situation isn't much better; the handbrake is meant to be an emergency brake, which to my mind means that it should be failsafe, i.e. manually operated. IMV electronic handbrakes wouldn't qualify if they applied the spirit and the letter of the law.

cheers


Official views on the hand brake have changed. The MOT test now refers to it as the parking brake.

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[XAP]Bob
Posts: 17179
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby [XAP]Bob » 18 Feb 2020, 1:29pm

notxal wrote:I recently wanted to import some powder coating kits from the US to resell but was hampered by the kits not being CE approved but they were approved to all the US standards.

Now we hopefully will be able to do this as we will probably have a much more intense trading relationship with the US and may accept their standards as good enough to resell in the UK.



i.e. lower standards...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Tangled Metal
Posts: 6458
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby Tangled Metal » 18 Feb 2020, 1:44pm

I've been using various standards for 20 years. Over the years it's changed from BS then number to BS EN and same number. Then ISO got added. I once got sent a standard DIN EN then a number. Looked up at BSI and exact standard sold by them was BS EN notation.

One company I worked for benefited from Germany's tendencies to being stricter than other countries. A much larger German company stopped making a material we did and stopped processing it due to a higher DIN standard effectively banning it. We were then free to import it into Germany as the processed item.

The EU was very good at working with higher national standards so long as they had a base standard that it still covered. If that makes sense. However, there's been many a case where the BS standard was a higher standard. The UK has been a big player in the national, supra- national and international standards development. Examples include precursors to the iso 9000 series, occupational health standards, etc. The level of respect given to the BSI was probably best demonstrated by the ISO giving them the secretariat role in the development of the current ISO 9001 standard. That is a very significant standard and one that underpins several industry specific technical standards for quality.

My point is the UK has been one of a select minority of nations with a highly developed systems of regulation and standards. It's madness to think the decades even century plus period of time the UK has played a significant role in getting to the standardisation system in place around the world is going to be completely given up after Brexit. We were a very long way down this road before the EU existed.

pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby pwa » 18 Feb 2020, 1:58pm

One thing is sure, and that is that the Health and Safety culture is alive and well in the UK. It occasionally falls short (Grenfell for example) but mostly it is operating pretty well. When I look back at some of the practices I used to be involved in at work I shudder and reflect on how much more careful we are these days. I have been to EU nations where H&S seems less rigorous, so I don't think being in or out of the EU is in itself a big determinant in this. It is more down to the culture in individual nations. And frankly, if we let safety standards slip it is down to us and we will have only ourselves to blame.

simonhill
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Location: Essex

Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby simonhill » 18 Feb 2020, 3:21pm

Thanks for all the replies, very interesting. However.....

The point I was trying to raise was far simpler than most of you have answered. I was wondering will we have adequate bodies to be setting and policing our standards, new or old.

Our beloved leaders talk of "a light touch" and "cutting red tape" in our brave new world. If this is the case, will a light touch authority have the means to be able to set and enforce standards. When the red tape is cut, won't that be a reduction in control (of standards).

I would have thought that outside the EU, dealing with many nations on a piecemeal basis, we will need larger rather than smaller organisations, but this is not what we are promised.

It was the eroding of the power and the reducing of the scope of the control that I was wondering about. Or needn't I worry.

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby Tangled Metal » 18 Feb 2020, 3:48pm

pwa wrote:One thing is sure, and that is that the Health and Safety culture is alive and well in the UK. It occasionally falls short (Grenfell for example) but mostly it is operating pretty well. When I look back at some of the practices I used to be involved in at work I shudder and reflect on how much more careful we are these days. I have been to EU nations where H&S seems less rigorous, so I don't think being in or out of the EU is in itself a big determinant in this. It is more down to the culture in individual nations. And frankly, if we let safety standards slip it is down to us and we will have only ourselves to blame.

Before retiring my dad followed EU infrastructure money into the republic of Ireland on road building jobs. His UK safety training would see him working anywhere in the eu except Ireland. He had a two week course before starting work. How things have changed in Ireland!

Mind you as a kid childcare in my longer school holidays often meant days on site with my dad. Hard hat and kid's wellies meant I was perfectly safe. No hi viz and that's despite standing in a muddy track while heavy machinery trundle past me with my dad 30m away discussing part of the road design with his inspectors and the contractor. I used to get the old road plans to draw on to keep me busy. I bet things are different now.

It's amazing how H&S has improved in the UK and around the world. Ten years ago our manager got shipped out to our customers subcontractor in Mexico. Great big cranes lifting huge girders over the two storey prefab offices right in the middle of the open air factory. Any rain and it became a muddy quagmire. The first aid box was almost empty and was covered in dried blood. Accident rate was regular deaths. The chief engineer running the site was mid twenties and very little experience. I would bet that things are different now. Probably driven by the demands of customers from countries with more developed standards like the UK, Canada and even America. Our customer was Canadian and when I left the country it was very much into auditing supplies and subbies got best practices in quality, environmental and safety.

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby Tangled Metal » 18 Feb 2020, 3:58pm

It's not government quangos or departments that enforce standards but the industry itself in most cases. Take automotive for example, because I'm familiar with it. As a small supplier our company might be expected to cut corners more. We simply can't. Supplier risk assessments on quality, safety and environmental determines our ranking. If perceived to be a risk they'll audit us. This covers the three main areas of Q, H, S, and E but also conflict materials, slavery, and a few other matters too.

Larger companies have reputational factors making them want to uphold high standards which get passed down the supply chain. Even if UK standards dropped business is global. You'll find UK PLC working to EU, us, or Japanese standards. Like other nations plc companies. That will filter down to SMEs in the UK.

Put simply the UK isn't a lone wolf, industry works as part of a global economy. We cannot go downhill alone. That imho means toy won't really need more or bigger departments because industries self police on the global stage which does filter down.

pete75
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Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby pete75 » 18 Feb 2020, 5:09pm

Here's the view of a leading Brexiter and Cabinet Minister.

Jacob Rees-Mogg said regulations that were “good enough for India” could be good enough for the UK – arguing that the UK could go “a very long way” to rolling back high EU standards.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 59336.html

francovendee
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Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby francovendee » 19 Feb 2020, 8:44am

pete75 wrote:Here's the view of a leading Brexiter and Cabinet Minister.

Jacob Rees-Mogg said regulations that were “good enough for India” could be good enough for the UK – arguing that the UK could go “a very long way” to rolling back high EU standards.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 59336.html


We haven't heard a lot from him recently. His 18th century views are always useful, just make sure we do the opposite!!

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Feb 2020, 8:48am

I had hoped that his recent silence meant he was again a back benched. Wishful thinking. Actually wishful thinking would have been him losing his seat spectacularly in December.

Either way he's becoming more irrelevant. After the December elections and end of January Boris has less need to pander to the erg and eurosceptics. As shown by a lot of them losing their cabinet positions I believe.

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Feb 2020, 8:59am

The Indian standards body had 20,000+ standards in place January last year. They have identified 15 key international standards and are aiui writing Indian equivalent standards. I also understand that many sectors of Indian industry with international dealings work to international standards relevant to their sector and business.

I am also certain that JRM had no knowledge of Indian standards when he wrote or said that. I'm on various quality forums and there's a very big Indian presence on them. Including some very significant expertise too. Indeed there's one Indian poster who was involved in the last revision of ISO 9001. You don't get that invitation if you're not respected in the standards community.

pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby pete75 » 19 Feb 2020, 11:33am

Tangled Metal wrote:The Indian standards body had 20,000+ standards in place January last year. They have identified 15 key international standards and are aiui writing Indian equivalent standards. I also understand that many sectors of Indian industry with international dealings work to international standards relevant to their sector and business.

I am also certain that JRM had no knowledge of Indian standards when he wrote or said that. I'm on various quality forums and there's a very big Indian presence on them. Including some very significant expertise too. Indeed there's one Indian poster who was involved in the last revision of ISO 9001. You don't get that invitation if you're not respected in the standards community.


Would this be the India where over 10 million children are used as labour? The India where there are estimated to be almost 400,000 children working as bonded labourers - something akin to slavery?

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Feb 2020, 11:54am

pete75 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:The Indian standards body had 20,000+ standards in place January last year. They have identified 15 key international standards and are aiui writing Indian equivalent standards. I also understand that many sectors of Indian industry with international dealings work to international standards relevant to their sector and business.

I am also certain that JRM had no knowledge of Indian standards when he wrote or said that. I'm on various quality forums and there's a very big Indian presence on them. Including some very significant expertise too. Indeed there's one Indian poster who was involved in the last revision of ISO 9001. You don't get that invitation if you're not respected in the standards community.


Would this be the India where over 10 million children are used as labour? The India where there are estimated to be almost 400,000 children working as bonded labourers - something akin to slavery?

Yes it would, but if you're talking of technical standards that affect quality of product made in India unfortunately the standards for slavery, child exploitation, etc then they're not necessarily working to poor standards. They're often working to international standards until they have their own, even then I bet the Indian equivalent to international standards will be a virtual copy anyway.

It's kind of a prejudice to look down on a nation in this way. There's a lot of high standards in India. Iirc Larson and Toubro is an Indian based engineering company that's a good example. It's competing with large, western engineering companies as virtual equals.

Of course, if you're looking at child exploitation then look to western companies too like Nike. There's many western CTO Moscow's who outsource without conscience. Conscience comes after getting found out. Until then they're not just condoning it but encouraging it.