Safety Standards Post Brexit

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby Bmblbzzz » 19 Feb 2020, 11:57am

In the immediate term, it's the poor who benefit from child labour (in the next generation, of course, they suffer). Further up the chain, it's you and me. For instance, are you using a Windows computer right now? Microsoft have a big centre in India. No, they don't employ child labour, but they wouldn't be able to do what they do at the price they do it without that environment.

pete75
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Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby pete75 » 19 Feb 2020, 12:13pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:In the immediate term, it's the poor who benefit from child labour (in the next generation, of course, they suffer). Further up the chain, it's you and me. For instance, are you using a Windows computer right now? Microsoft have a big centre in India. No, they don't employ child labour, but they wouldn't be able to do what they do at the price they do it without that environment.


It's the employers who benefit most from child labour not the poor. I don't think consumers benefit much from it. Nike still charge a hundred quid for a pair of trainers made at low cost by children. The cost savings are to boost company profits not cut retail prices.

Microsoft have centres all over the world. Do you think they shouldn't have them in places like India and only provide the relatively well paid employment in wealthy western countries?

pete75
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Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby pete75 » 19 Feb 2020, 12:19pm

Tangled Metal wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:The Indian standards body had 20,000+ standards in place January last year. They have identified 15 key international standards and are aiui writing Indian equivalent standards. I also understand that many sectors of Indian industry with international dealings work to international standards relevant to their sector and business.

I am also certain that JRM had no knowledge of Indian standards when he wrote or said that. I'm on various quality forums and there's a very big Indian presence on them. Including some very significant expertise too. Indeed there's one Indian poster who was involved in the last revision of ISO 9001. You don't get that invitation if you're not respected in the standards community.


Would this be the India where over 10 million children are used as labour? The India where there are estimated to be almost 400,000 children working as bonded labourers - something akin to slavery?

Yes it would, but if you're talking of technical standards that affect quality of product made in India unfortunately the standards for slavery, child exploitation, etc then they're not necessarily working to poor standards. They're often working to international standards until they have their own, even then I bet the Indian equivalent to international standards will be a virtual copy anyway.

It's kind of a prejudice to look down on a nation in this way. There's a lot of high standards in India. Iirc Larson and Toubro is an Indian based engineering company that's a good example. It's competing with large, western engineering companies as virtual equals.

Of course, if you're looking at child exploitation then look to western companies too like Nike. There's many western CTO Moscow's who outsource without conscience. Conscience comes after getting found out. Until then they're not just condoning it but encouraging it.


It's prejudice to look down on a nation that allows large scale bonded child labour. I think not.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Feb 2020, 12:58pm

pete75 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Would this be the India where over 10 million children are used as labour? The India where there are estimated to be almost 400,000 children working as bonded labourers - something akin to slavery?

Yes it would, but if you're talking of technical standards that affect quality of product made in India unfortunately the standards for slavery, child exploitation, etc then they're not necessarily working to poor standards. They're often working to international standards until they have their own, even then I bet the Indian equivalent to international standards will be a virtual copy anyway.

It's kind of a prejudice to look down on a nation in this way. There's a lot of high standards in India. Iirc Larson and Toubro is an Indian based engineering company that's a good example. It's competing with large, western engineering companies as virtual equals.

Of course, if you're looking at child exploitation then look to western companies too like Nike. There's many western CTO Moscow's who outsource without conscience. Conscience comes after getting found out. Until then they're not just condoning it but encouraging it.


It's prejudice to look down on a nation that allows large scale bonded child labour. I think not.

It's not the whole country doing that. Yes it's a problem just like many other developing and even developed countries around the world. Slavery too is a big problem around the world including the UK. To focus on India in a discussion that was about standards is prejudice but of course your opinion differs on that.

pete75
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Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby pete75 » 19 Feb 2020, 1:02pm

Tangled Metal wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:Yes it would, but if you're talking of technical standards that affect quality of product made in India unfortunately the standards for slavery, child exploitation, etc then they're not necessarily working to poor standards. They're often working to international standards until they have their own, even then I bet the Indian equivalent to international standards will be a virtual copy anyway.

It's kind of a prejudice to look down on a nation in this way. There's a lot of high standards in India. Iirc Larson and Toubro is an Indian based engineering company that's a good example. It's competing with large, western engineering companies as virtual equals.

Of course, if you're looking at child exploitation then look to western companies too like Nike. There's many western CTO Moscow's who outsource without conscience. Conscience comes after getting found out. Until then they're not just condoning it but encouraging it.


It's prejudice to look down on a nation that allows large scale bonded child labour. I think not.

It's not the whole country doing that. Yes it's a problem just like many other developing and even developed countries around the world. Slavery too is a big problem around the world including the UK. To focus on India in a discussion that was about standards is prejudice but of course your opinion differs on that.


I mentioned India because I was quoting what JRM said. If you've a problem with that I suggest you take it up with him.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Feb 2020, 1:12pm

My posts weren't targeted at you just a general comment that there's prejudice in the way people from the supposedly enlightened west on countries like India. The digression to child exploitation in a discussion on standards is another way of letting it leak out whether intentional or not.

Child exploitation and slavery is a developed world problem possibly as much as a developing world problem. Not least because we often outsource to those countries and could be a driver for change. But of course we can not stop it over here.

pete75
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Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby pete75 » 19 Feb 2020, 1:57pm

Tangled Metal wrote:My posts weren't targeted at you just a general comment that there's prejudice in the way people from the supposedly enlightened west on countries like India. The digression to child exploitation in a discussion on standards is another way of letting it leak out whether intentional or not.

Child exploitation and slavery is a developed world problem possibly as much as a developing world problem. Not least because we often outsource to those countries and could be a driver for change. But of course we can not stop it over here.


Child exploitation is directly linked to standards, employment and workplace safety standards. It's not prejudice to point out that some countries allow it on a large scale.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Feb 2020, 3:07pm

It's nothing to do with technical standards which would directly impact on bikes and bike parts which I believe this thread started off discussing.

Child exploitation is a failure of states, of politicians, policies, regulations, of ethics, morals, etc. It's something that is probably more widespread in its various forms than commonly thought. It's a weakness of humanity not technical standards.

Besides, shouldn't we focus on our own back door with this? Child exploitation and slavery across the age groups is still a problem in the UK.

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby Bmblbzzz » 19 Feb 2020, 4:01pm

pete75 wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:In the immediate term, it's the poor who benefit from child labour (in the next generation, of course, they suffer). Further up the chain, it's you and me. For instance, are you using a Windows computer right now? Microsoft have a big centre in India. No, they don't employ child labour, but they wouldn't be able to do what they do at the price they do it without that environment.


It's the employers who benefit most from child labour not the poor. I don't think consumers benefit much from it. Nike still charge a hundred quid for a pair of trainers made at low cost by children. The cost savings are to boost company profits not cut retail prices.

The poor benefit in that income from their children allows them to eat. In doing so they perpetuate the chain of poverty through their children missing an education. Obviously the employers of the children also benefit; the point is that so do a lot of other people, whether they know it or not. Nike might be rigorous in ensuring no children are employed in the factories they sub-contract to, but the factory wouldn't have been -- certainly wasn't -- built without child labour, the adults on the machines there would be paying more for their food, clothes, rent, bus fares and everything else.

Microsoft have centres all over the world. Do you think they shouldn't have them in places like India and only provide the relatively well paid employment in wealthy western countries?

On the contrary. By employing wealthy, well-educated Indians (insert other places as appropriate), they shorten the chain from MS employee's salary to child's pocket -- whether directly at the coffee stand or indirectly in other services or goods -- and thus to the poor families. I'm just pointing out that the chain goes all the way up from the rice paddy.

pete75
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Re: Safety Standards Post Brexit

Postby pete75 » 19 Feb 2020, 4:58pm

Tangled Metal wrote:It's nothing to do with technical standards which would directly impact on bikes and bike parts which I believe this thread started off discussing.

Child exploitation is a failure of states, of politicians, policies, regulations, of ethics, morals, etc. It's something that is probably more widespread in its various forms than commonly thought. It's a weakness of humanity not technical standards.

Besides, shouldn't we focus on our own back door with this? Child exploitation and slavery across the age groups is still a problem in the UK.

I believe the heading is safety standards. This covers more than just technical standards.