Braking in corners

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
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The utility cyclist
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Re: Braking in corners

Postby The utility cyclist » 21 Feb 2020, 12:22am

thatsnotmyname wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
thatsnotmyname wrote:
Ironically, the accompanying diagram showed a right-hander. Which kind of illustrates the point I was making.


Seems we agree :-)


Seems you've mis-read the diagram, more like. You seem to think the 'green route' is a great idea - despite crossing onto the opposite carriageway on a potentially blind hairpin. If you can explain that one away, I'll be waiting..

Wouldn't coming DOWN hill mean that the blind aspect as you describe it, is in fact not blind at all in many instances because you're able to see what is around the bend due to the height differential? And if you can't see, then very few persons are going to risk taking that line into the opposite carriageway as per the diagram.

jimlews
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Re: Braking in corners

Postby jimlews » 21 Feb 2020, 7:35am

Learning to drive (Boo Hiss!) I was told: 'for any corner, anywhere in the world, SLOW IN and FAST OUT'.
So brake before the corner then power out. I've found that doing this is actually faster in car or on a pedal cycle.

thatsnotmyname
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Re: Braking in corners

Postby thatsnotmyname » 21 Feb 2020, 8:08am

The utility cyclist wrote:
thatsnotmyname wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
Seems we agree :-)


Seems you've mis-read the diagram, more like. You seem to think the 'green route' is a great idea - despite crossing onto the opposite carriageway on a potentially blind hairpin. If you can explain that one away, I'll be waiting..

Wouldn't coming DOWN hill mean that the blind aspect as you describe it, is in fact not blind at all in many instances because you're able to see what is around the bend due to the height differential? And if you can't see, then very few persons are going to risk taking that line into the opposite carriageway as per the diagram.


Absolutely. Which further underlines my point that a simplistic suggestion for ‘using all the road’ is a bad idea.

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Mick F
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Re: Braking in corners

Postby Mick F » 21 Feb 2020, 8:39am

jimlews wrote:Learning to drive (Boo Hiss!) I was told: 'for any corner, anywhere in the world, SLOW IN and FAST OUT'.
So brake before the corner then power out. I've found that doing this is actually faster in car or on a pedal cycle.
How can you "power out" of a downhill hairpin on a downhill road where you need to be braking all the time?

Therefore, it's plainly not any corner anywhere in the world.
Mick F. Cornwall

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Braking in corners

Postby roubaixtuesday » 21 Feb 2020, 9:00am

Mick F wrote:
jimlews wrote:Learning to drive (Boo Hiss!) I was told: 'for any corner, anywhere in the world, SLOW IN and FAST OUT'.
So brake before the corner then power out. I've found that doing this is actually faster in car or on a pedal cycle.
How can you "power out" of a downhill hairpin on a downhill road where you need to be braking all the time?

Therefore, it's plainly not any corner anywhere in the world.



Just for example, X marks the corners where exactly this applies on a bike descending the Cat and Fiddle. Continuous braking is not necessary, or advisable, on many less steep descents.

Capture.JPG

simonhill
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Re: Braking in corners

Postby simonhill » 21 Feb 2020, 2:50pm

Having read this. I wondered what I did. I am essentially a tourer with moderate load and exercise caution rather than laid over speed.

Today, I was lucky enough to have a wonderful coastal ride. Nothing too severe, but a few longish climbs and plenty of fast open corner descents. The only hairpins were up.

Sure enough, I don't brake once cornering. But what I found was if the bike was running away a bit (ie quite steep) and if road conditions permitted (light traffic), I went into the corner straight, heading deep into it* while braking fairly hard. This means I could brake a lot further into the corner. Having lost the speed, I then complete the corner and let gravity accelerate me out.

It's not quite as dramatic or right angled as it sounds and seems to work, or rather it does for me. The alternative of stopping braking as I enter the corner would have me running away too fast by the time I exited.

Does that make sense? Any comments?

Edit *said apex by mistake.

mattheus
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Re: Braking in corners

Postby mattheus » 21 Feb 2020, 3:00pm

simonhill wrote:...
Sure enough, I don't brake once cornering. But what I found was if the bike was running away a bit (ie quite steep) and if road conditions permitted (light traffic), I went into the corner straight, heading deep into it* while braking fairly hard. This means I could brake a lot further into the corner. Having lost the speed, I then complete the corner and let gravity accelerate me out.

It's not quite as dramatic or right angled as it sounds and seems to work, or rather it does for me. The alternative of stopping braking as I enter the corner would have me running away too fast by the time I exited.

Does that make sense? Any comments?

Edit *said apex by mistake.


Yup, makes sense. It's not the perfect approach, but its not toooo far from it. If you scroll back to the physics teacher's lecture, you should see that what you're doing is a variation on what he describes :)

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Mick F
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Re: Braking in corners

Postby Mick F » 21 Feb 2020, 3:07pm

This morning, I was out on a ride and came down into the village by the back lanes rather than the 40mph descent on the main A390.
One corner in Dimson at the top of King Street is called Chimney Corner.
Tight righthander on a hill.

I tried to get round without braking.
Impossible, but I did release the brakes for a second or so after I rounded the apex. Not good visibility there and it's a single track road, so the brakes have to be used and you can't go fast.
Most of the way down King Street I had the brakes on, and hard too as I came round the bend into The Orchard and called in at the Health Centre.

Map by way of illustration.
Screen Shot 2020-02-21 at 15.04.56.png


Chimney Corner at the top of King Street.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.52616 ... 312!8i6656
Mick F. Cornwall

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Braking in corners

Postby roubaixtuesday » 21 Feb 2020, 3:11pm

Mick F wrote:This morning, I was out on a ride and came down into the village by the back lanes rather than the 40mph descent on the main A390.
One corner in Dimson at the top of King Street is called Chimney Corner.
Tight righthander on a hill.

I tried to get round without braking.
Impossible, but I did release the brakes for a second or so after I rounded the apex. Not good visibility there and it's a single track road, so the brakes have to be used and you can't go fast.
Most of the way down King Street I had the brakes on, and hard too as I came round the bend into The Orchard and called in at the Health Centre.

Map by way of illustration.Screen Shot 2020-02-21 at 15.04.56.png

Chimney Corner at the top of King Street.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.52616 ... 312!8i6656


"Not on Chimney corner" and "not any corner anywhere in the world" are not synonymous!

I'm sure everyone would agree there are many corners on steep descents where continuous hard breaking is essential.

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foxyrider
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Re: Braking in corners

Postby foxyrider » 22 Feb 2020, 4:15pm

Mick F wrote:
jimlews wrote:Learning to drive (Boo Hiss!) I was told: 'for any corner, anywhere in the world, SLOW IN and FAST OUT'.
So brake before the corner then power out. I've found that doing this is actually faster in car or on a pedal cycle.
How can you "power out" of a downhill hairpin on a downhill road where you need to be braking all the time?

Therefore, it's plainly not any corner anywhere in the world.


Of course you can Mick, you shouldn't be braking all the time, just the act of releasing the brakes in this situation will give you acceleration
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!

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Mick F
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Re: Braking in corners

Postby Mick F » 22 Feb 2020, 5:37pm

............ but it's steep downhill.
You must be braking continuously as you'd be going dangerously fast.
Mick F. Cornwall

jimlews
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Re: Braking in corners

Postby jimlews » 22 Feb 2020, 6:06pm

Mick F wrote:
jimlews wrote:Learning to drive (Boo Hiss!) I was told: 'for any corner, anywhere in the world, SLOW IN and FAST OUT'.
So brake before the corner then power out. I've found that doing this is actually faster in car or on a pedal cycle.
How can you "power out" of a downhill hairpin on a downhill road where you need to be braking all the time?

Therefore, it's plainly not any corner anywhere in the world.



Gravity.

Incidentally, You will note that I didn't say never apply the brakes in a corner.

The reason one should brake before is to set a safe speed for the corner, then one may apply modulated braking as required, rather than going in hell for leather, panic braking and becoming intimately acquainted with the landscape in an unpleasant manner.

Ahh, modulated braking; a sadly neglected art!

I humbly suggest that 'fast out' is entirely at your discretion.

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Mick F
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Re: Braking in corners

Postby Mick F » 22 Feb 2020, 6:46pm

Spot on.
Nicely put.
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Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Braking in corners

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 22 Feb 2020, 6:53pm

Mick F wrote:
jimlews wrote:Learning to drive (Boo Hiss!) I was told: 'for any corner, anywhere in the world, SLOW IN and FAST OUT'.
So brake before the corner then power out. I've found that doing this is actually faster in car or on a pedal cycle.
How can you "power out" of a downhill hairpin on a downhill road where you need to be braking all the time?

Therefore, it's plainly not any corner anywhere in the world.


Unless it’s a flat crit course, or on a race track.

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Re: Braking in corners

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 22 Feb 2020, 7:05pm

jimlews wrote:
Mick F wrote:
jimlews wrote:Learning to drive (Boo Hiss!) I was told: 'for any corner, anywhere in the world, SLOW IN and FAST OUT'.
So brake before the corner then power out. I've found that doing this is actually faster in car or on a pedal cycle.
How can you "power out" of a downhill hairpin on a downhill road where you need to be braking all the time?

Therefore, it's plainly not any corner anywhere in the world.



Gravity.

Incidentally, You will note that I didn't say never apply the brakes in a corner.

The reason one should brake before is to set a safe speed for the corner, then one may apply modulated braking as required, rather than going in hell for leather, panic braking and becoming intimately acquainted with the landscape in an unpleasant manner.

Ahh, modulated braking; a sadly neglected art!

I humbly suggest that 'fast out' is entirely at your discretion.


“Panic” and “trail” braking are only separated by the size of one’s cojones.