Cycling as an activity during the Covid 19 outbreak

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
Psamathe
Posts: 11560
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Cycling as an activity during the Covid 19 outbreak

Postby Psamathe » 16 Apr 2020, 12:43pm

mjr wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Might I venture a little of what we actually know?

You did, but the problem is that everyone picks a different "little of what we actually know". For example:

5. Michael Gove, whose word is not law and we might not like or respect him (I don't) but it is not unreasonable to assume that he is close to government thinking, quite clearly stated: running 30 minutes, walking one hour and cycling somewhere between.

In the very same statement as those times, he also said quite clearly that it depends on one's fitness and that's just what he'd think reasonable for the average (=unfit!) person that week, but almost everyone ignores those bits of what he said!
......

Or
Oldjohnw wrote:On the one hand some say here is no clarity whilst others say the rules are precise.

Might I venture a little of what we actually know?

1. The legislation says we must remain in our homes.
2. There are then some permissions/exceptions/concessions or what you will....

And none of those exceptions (neither law nor guidance) include travelling to go live in a 2nd home (not your residence) so when PM Johnson does that the message becomes that "it's all optional ..." (even though it is "law", when PM breaks is is he above the law or is the law more a sort of do it if it is convenient?)

Ian

Psamathe
Posts: 11560
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Cycling as an activity during the Covid 19 outbreak

Postby Psamathe » 16 Apr 2020, 12:58pm

I think the differences between guidance and law, and then yet further differences introduced by Ministers/MPs/Gov. Advisers on TV/News is confusing what people can and cannot do (made even worse when, as mentioned above, even PM doe snot follow the law).

Which, for people who want more freedom gives them plenty of excuses to push boundaries and do what they want. Some will always obsessively follow every suggested restriction (e.g. one of my brothers who'll follow it all plus a bit), others will ignore but the blurring and mixed messages encourages more to push further.

Ian

RH20
Posts: 52
Joined: 25 Aug 2019, 6:37pm

Re: Cycling as an activity during the Covid 19 outbreak

Postby RH20 » 16 Apr 2020, 1:11pm

The rules on lockdown are to me very clear. Stay home, but we can go out for daily exercise, food
shopping and collection of prescriptions. Whilst there are lots of pedants who may decide to ask what constitutes exercise, 1hr, 2hrs, 5 miles, 50 miles etc. We are allowed out of our homes. Perhaps a simple yardstick is how much exercise would I normally do.
Regarding not travelling too far from home but getting one’s exercise it is very easy. On a map centred on you home draw a circle of radius say 5 kilometres, look at roads that are as close to the circumference. Then 5km to ride to the perimeter, 5km back, plus py x d = approximately a circle of 31km. Total distance 31 + 10 = 41 km, and you are never more than about 5km from home. Ride the circumference as much as suits the individual.
To be pedantic, yes I too can be. The Prime Minister recovering at Checkers is not going to his second home. Checkers is a residence of the Prime Minister of the UK. It is highly unlikely he will be coming into contact with the public, and I am no Tory.

Exercise, maintain social distance, be happy and enjoy the sun, But above all do not put problems where there are none.

Psamathe
Posts: 11560
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Cycling as an activity during the Covid 19 outbreak

Postby Psamathe » 16 Apr 2020, 1:17pm

RH20 wrote:The rules on lockdown are to me very clear. Stay home, but we can go out for daily exercise, food
shopping and collection of prescriptions. Whilst there are lots of pedants who may decide to ask what constitutes exercise, 1hr, 2hrs, 5 miles, 50 miles etc. We are allowed out of our homes. Perhaps a simple yardstick is how much exercise would I normally do.
Regarding not travelling too far from home but getting one’s exercise it is very easy. On a map centred on you home draw a circle of radius say 5 kilometres, look at roads that are as close to the circumference. Then 5km to ride to the perimeter, 5km back, plus py x d = approximately a circle of 31km. Total distance 31 + 10 = 41 km, and you are never more than about 5km from home. Ride the circumference as much as suits the individual......

So have you introduced yet another guideline ('cos I didn't see any of your regs in the Gov. published law), not heard those rules from any Gov. published guidance so uncertain what is happening 'cos I've not been following your regs.

I thought caring for others or going to work were also allowed within the law?

So many people telling so many others what is and isn't allowed (myself included?), and so many different versions ...

Ian

simonhill
Posts: 3191
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 11:28am
Location: Essex

Re: Cycling as an activity during the Covid 19 outbreak

Postby simonhill » 16 Apr 2020, 2:45pm

R4 News at 14:00 mentioned new guidelines including being able to drive to walk or cycle.

Won't spoil it by giving away too much, but plenty more for you lot to argue about.

Enjoy.

xerxes
Posts: 57
Joined: 10 May 2013, 7:22pm

Re: Cycling as an activity during the Covid 19 outbreak

Postby xerxes » 16 Apr 2020, 2:53pm

RH20 wrote: Perhaps a simple yardstick is how much exercise would I normally do.

Indeed, and in fact the original Government guidance (before Gove's suggestion) was to do your 'normal amount of exercise'.

slowster
Posts: 1720
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: Cycling as an activity during the Covid 19 outbreak

Postby slowster » 16 Apr 2020, 3:16pm

Psamathe wrote:
mjr wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Might I venture a little of what we actually know?

You did, but the problem is that everyone picks a different "little of what we actually know". For example:

5. Michael Gove, whose word is not law and we might not like or respect him (I don't) but it is not unreasonable to assume that he is close to government thinking, quite clearly stated: running 30 minutes, walking one hour and cycling somewhere between.

In the very same statement as those times, he also said quite clearly that it depends on one's fitness and that's just what he'd think reasonable for the average (=unfit!) person that week, but almost everyone ignores those bits of what he said!
......

Or
Oldjohnw wrote:On the one hand some say here is no clarity whilst others say the rules are precise.

Might I venture a little of what we actually know?

1. The legislation says we must remain in our homes.
2. There are then some permissions/exceptions/concessions or what you will....

And none of those exceptions (neither law nor guidance) include travelling to go live in a 2nd home (not your residence) so when PM Johnson does that the message becomes that "it's all optional ..." (even though it is "law", when PM breaks is is he above the law or is the law more a sort of do it if it is convenient?)


As mjr has said, the key word in the Regulations is 'reasonable', and what is reasonable would ultimately be decided by a court, and will likely vary between people and situations depending upon the particular circumstances applying. The criterion of reasonableness is in a lot of UK legislation, and its imprecision usually does not cause problems because there is normally a lot of precedent and guidance about what is and is not reasonable to which people can refer (and use as a defence in a court case), e.g. a lot of Health & Safety legislation.

The situation we now in is completely without precedent, which does make it more difficult to be sure of what is and is not reasonable, but obsessing where the threshold lies for an individual being fined or prosecuted is much less important than the effect of the legislation and the publicity surrounding it and the general guidance issued by the government and its scientists etc. in getting us as many of us as possible to follow it as best as we can. As I understand it, the degree of compliance by 90+% of us is far more important in reducing the general infection rate than the degree of non-compliance by a very small percentage (I think the UK modelling is in fact based on something like 75% compliance).

FWIW I think that when people give examples of what they think is or might be reasonable, very often that is indeed what is likely to be reasonable for them, i.e. a good criterion for them but not necessarily for others. In other words, if someone thinks a cycle ride of only up to 5 miles is reasonable that is probably because it's the maximum distance they would normally ride.

With regard to exactly what the law says, the so called exceptions are not a definitive exhaustive list, but rather examples of activities which would be considered reasonable:

6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes...

So the reason(s) for the PM's removal to Chequers probably have reasonable justification, e.g. his medical advisor and/or the Cabinet Secretary may have recommended or required it for his health and to keep him out of no. 10 where the PM's staff and others will continue to be working, and where his continued presence in the flat occupied by the PM might be an unnecessary disruption to the running of no. 10, and might encourage him to attempt to return to work/interfere before he was deemed to be sufficiently recovered.

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 18478
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Cycling as an activity during the Covid 19 outbreak

Postby Vorpal » 16 Apr 2020, 4:35pm

A few posts have been removed. Can we please leave twisty undergarments and high horses out of it?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

geocycle
Posts: 1832
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 9:46am

Re: Cycling as an activity during the Covid 19 outbreak

Postby geocycle » 16 Apr 2020, 4:47pm

I’m not sure if this has been posted

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/j ... n-2020.pdf

If nothing else it confirms that the regulations rest on what is considered reasonable. It also clearly distinguishes law and guidance. Nothing specific on cycling although the committee reprise some of the same discussion here.

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 16373
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Cycling as an activity during the Covid 19 outbreak

Postby mjr » 16 Apr 2020, 5:22pm

Vorpal wrote:A few posts have been removed. Can we please leave twisty undergarments and high horses out of it?

I think you mean moved, not removed, because I got the "you are not authorised..." error again. :mad:

You have left the undergarments post at viewtopic.php?p=1468778#p1468778 and unless it is removed, I will try to reply again because I think it is rather odd to post a lengthy misleading argument based on cherry-picked comments and then claim one isn't trying to tell anyone what to do, then in another post soon after to describe one's own "sticking two fingers up to he guidance" activities. Are we not allowed to highlight such inconsistencies?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

Psamathe
Posts: 11560
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Cycling as an activity during the Covid 19 outbreak

Postby Psamathe » 16 Apr 2020, 5:54pm

Vorpal wrote:A few posts have been removed. Can we please leave twisty undergarments and high horses out of it?

Except when people accuse of of something quite ludicrous it seems only fair to ask them why and on what basis!

Ian

Oldjohnw
Posts: 5314
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Cycling as an activity during the Covid 19 outbreak

Postby Oldjohnw » 16 Apr 2020, 6:18pm

Removed by author
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 17 Apr 2020, 4:33am, edited 1 time in total.
John

pedals2slowly
Posts: 222
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 7:50pm

Re: Cycling as an activity during the Covid 19 outbreak

Postby pedals2slowly » 16 Apr 2020, 6:38pm

Hooray, It's OK to exercise for at least two hours and stop for a picnic.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-52312560

slowster
Posts: 1720
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: Cycling as an activity during the Covid 19 outbreak

Postby slowster » 16 Apr 2020, 6:47pm

Oldjohnw wrote:You are misquoting again. I said I was not sticking two fingers up to the guidance. Disagree with me if you like but do not turn what I say into something the exact opposite.

I don't follow your reasoning. You have stated that on one day you took two forms of exercise, and that in doing so you were "not sticking two fingers up to the guidance". mjr has pointed out that there is published government guidance which states that you should only take one form of exercise a day, but has also noted that the actual wording of the legislation does not specify just one form of exercise. Therefore arguably you are not complying with the guidance (or in your words are sticking two fingers up to it).

To be clear, I think that what you did would be considered reasonable and complied with the legislation, and the problem lies with the guidance which is overly precise (and similarly with ministers making off the cuff statements to the media about what is permitted).

I think the guidance needs to be considered as just that: guidance. If you comply with the guidance then you can be sure of being within the law. If you don't strictly follow the guidance it does not necessarily mean that you are breaking the law, but rather that your particular circumstances would need to be taken into account to determine whether what you did was reasonable, and if it was reasonable then it was legal. From what you describe a 1 hour ride and a walk later around the village green which posed no significant increased risk to yourself or others sounds very reasonable.

User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 8864
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Cully
Contact:

Re: Cycling as an activity during the Covid 19 outbreak

Postby al_yrpal » 16 Apr 2020, 6:54pm

Yaaaawn... :lol:

Did a very pleasant 15 miles in the Devon countryside this morning. Raided a large village Coop with stacked shelves and no queue, filled the panniers to bursting. Hardly any walkers, no cyclists, just farmers in their tractors harrowing the dustbowl. So lucky to live in a remote area and have a nice bike.

Did a bit of chain maintenance this afternoon and decided my hydraulic brakes need bleeding so ordered a Shimano bleeding kit.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. Make a difference...