Cycling out of the saddle?

[Tigerbiten]

I know I'm sounding boring and I completely understand everything you say about controlled environments, but we hear so much about the concept of marginal gains, that irrespective of whether there were bigger advantages elsewhere, if there was any advantage to canting the bike, surely it would be happening?

The more the bike tips, the more power you can generate but it takes a lot more out of you.
So the start is all about maximum power from minimum effort.
There's no point in blowing a lot of your energy just to get off the line a little faster.
While the finish is all about maximum power from maximum effort.
There's no point in saving any energy at that point.
Hence the different styles between the start and finish.

[The utility cyclist]

Surely one should go as straight as possible, rocking wastes energy I think
Maybe one should use a lower gear

Your upper body shouldn't be moving, standing, honking if you like, allows you to turn over a bigger gear which may allow you to, for instance, not change gear over the hump back bridge.

Some people can't do it, some stay sat and change to a lower gear - its not compulsory but don't deride what you are clearly unfamiliar with, makes you sound whiny and petty :(

wow, talk about triggered
Clearly someone who also isn't as familiar as they'd like to think, the upper body always moves,
don't make whiny comments, it makes you sound out of your depth and petty particularly when you're plain wrong.

[Cyril Haearn]

Surely one should go as straight as possible, rocking wastes energy I think
Maybe one should use a lower gear

Seated, straight riding is most efficient, because of the maximisation of number of contact points with the bike. It’s not always fastest though. Standing rocking is far more powerful, and by default the quicker way, but relatively inefficient.

Quicker but inefficient , maybe better in short races, or to gain a psychological advantage
..
Could indeed be, as noted elsewhere, that many riders are using 'wrong' methods, that changes and improvements are possible

'Nothing is so good that it cannot be bettered'

When one considers what the riders ate and drunk decades ago in the TdF, that has changed and improved a lot, massage clothing etc etc likewise (I understand athletes may now be told exactly what to eat, and how much)
Doubtless there is still room for change & improvement when team sky, sorry ineos is unleashed again after lockdown

[Marcus Aurelius]

Surely one should go as straight as possible, rocking wastes energy I think
Maybe one should use a lower gear

Seated, straight riding is most efficient, because of the maximisation of number of contact points with the bike. It’s not always fastest though. Standing rocking is far more powerful, and by default the quicker way, but relatively inefficient.

Quicker but inefficient , maybe better in short races, or to gain a psychological advantage
..
Could indeed be, as noted elsewhere, that many riders are using 'wrong' methods, that changes and improvements are possible

'Nothing is so good that it cannot be bettered'

When one considers what the riders ate and drunk decades ago in the TdF, that has changed and improved a lot, massage clothing etc etc likewise (I understand athletes may now be told exactly what to eat, and how much)
Doubtless there is still room for change & improvement when team sky, sorry ineos is unleashed again after lockdown

Quite right. A lot of in depth studies were completed by team Sly, into various cycling things / techniques which were taken as gospel. Brailsford’s ‘marginal gains’ were spawned from actually experimenting with new concepts / ideas. As soon as the other teams worked out what had changed, and what was most effective, they cherry picked a lot of the best new ones. That’s a very common theme in sports.

[TrevA]

If riding out of the saddle generated more power/speed then road sprinters would sprint out of the saddle, but they generally don’t. Getting out of the saddle briefly does seem to enable you to accelerate quicker but for Consistent maximum speed and power delivery, I think you are better off sitting down.

[foxyrider]

If riding out of the saddle generated more power/speed then road sprinters would sprint out of the saddle, but they generally don’t. Getting out of the saddle briefly does seem to enable you to accelerate quicker but for Consistent maximum speed and power delivery, I think you are better off sitting down.

Have you actually seen sprinters sat down? Sitting will get you so far but if you look at a real head to head sprint, they are out of the sadlle. However, thats not quite the same as standing to maintain momentum on a climb, they often throw themselves around a fair bit in an all out effort to get every grain of power out.

[foxyrider]

[quote="The utility cyclist"
Clearly someone who also isn't as familiar as they'd like to think, the upper body always moves,
[/quote]

Thats not true. If the sun is behind me i can see any movement with my shadow, I can see quite clearly that my head and upper body are not moving -except forward of course, even if my lower body is. i spent years perfecting the technique, i want to be as efficient as possible on the bike, wasting energy moving about unnecesarily is not good use of my resources, call it a micro gain which leaves me with more in the tank.

That doesn't mean your body doesn't move, if you just stand and let rip you most likely will have some sort of bobbing action going on, i've known riders who look like a gorilla when they get out of the saddle, body and bike going all over the place, with a bit of practice even they have seen gains in using a less physical technique.

[cotswolds]

Something nobody's mentioned, presumably it has to be a lot less aero, another reason to only use it for short bursts?

[MikeF]

I never thought about whether the bike leans or not. I don't very often ride out of the saddle now, but it's just something I do or can do "automatically". It's usually to ride over a small hill without changing down.

[rfryer]

I never thought about whether the bike leans or not. I don't very often ride out of the saddle now, but it's just something I do or can do "automatically". It's usually to ride over a small hill without changing down.

I'm no expert on this, but I've been observing myself on recent rides. Most of the time when cycling, whether seated or standing, I push down on the pedals, while gravity pushes down on me, stopping me from taking off. I'm this mode, the bike barely rocks.

However, when going hard, especially standing, you need to brace yourself against the bars so that your pedal pushing doesn't eject you from the bike.
In this mode you pull up with your right hand as you push with the right foot, and vice versa. It's this that generates a degree of rocking, though with care not a huge amount. I feel that this movement is a symptom of the effort rather than something that in itself benefits either my peak power or efficiency.

[Cowsham]

Why do some in a group ride feel the need to announce "STANDING" ?

[531colin]

Why do some in a group ride feel the need to announce "STANDING" ?

Because they are un-coordinated, and as they stand they lurch....sideways, or slow down, meaning somebody behind is likely to touch their wheel.
This points to the actual reason why racing cyclists sometimes throw the bike about (when out of the saddle).....its nothing to do with propulsion, and everything to do with making it hard for somebody to "take your wheel" OR creating a bit of elbow room in a bunch sprint.
You won't see track riders doing it because if you get inside the sprinters line, the other bloke has to go round the long way, and you will get disqualified for obstructing another rider.

[softlips]

Why do some in a group ride feel the need to announce "STANDING" ?

I’ve never heard this. I guess because some people slow initially on standing and when returning to the saddle. Someone experienced in group riding should should know to peddle harder just before doing either.

[MikeF]

However, when going hard, especially standing, you need to brace yourself against the bars so that your pedal pushing doesn't eject you from the bike.
In this mode you pull up with your right hand as you push with the right foot, and vice versa. It's this that generates a degree of rocking, though with care not a huge amount.

If I'm seated on a hill I pull on the handlebars with both hands which ever got is pushing. I noticed today when out of the saddle the bike rocks a little, but not much, but I don't suppose I'm putting in as much effort as someone younger than me.

[thatsnotmyname]

So when a sprinter is starting, why aren't they rocking for one reason or another, as opposed to very obviously trying to stay as upright as possible? I think I may be slightly dense, but can you spell it out. Words of one syllable welcomed!

Presumably you are referring to the standing start of a kilo, or a team sprint? The emphasis for both is on getting the weight forward out of the start gate - not sideways - in the first 10-20m or so. Canting the bike sideways at low/zero velocity, while pushing 100+ gear inches will just mean the bike will head in that direction, rather than forwards. Most will lead with the left pedal, for the same reason, so that the bike stays straight coming out of the gate. Most sprinters will generally be back in the saddle after the first 150m or so, regardless. Same principle applies to IP and TP starts as well, incidentally. Nobody will rock the bike at the start for the same reason.

More generally, the aim when standing is not necessarily to lean the bike to one side or the other. The objective is to apply more pedal force by using your body weight over each pedal. Which can also be achieved by transferring your body weight from side to side, rather than rocking the bike as such. It amounts to much the same thing, but there is an observable difference between the two techniques - and rocking the bike will recruit far more muscles than simply transferring body weight. Lots of overhead shots of bunch sprints (in Tdf coverage, etc) where this can be observed.

Track sprinting is about as controlled an environment as you’ll find.The surface, even the air pressures inside the velodrome are tightly controlled

This is not correct. No velodrome yet built has any effective means of controlling air pressure. Not without it being a completely sealed environment. Think about it.