Distance and Total Ascent

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
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Chris Jeggo
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Re: Distance and Total Ascent

Post by Chris Jeggo »

mattheus wrote: 26 Apr 2021, 2:30pm
Chris Jeggo wrote: 26 Apr 2021, 2:17pm
KTHSullivan wrote: 26 Apr 2021, 2:01pm ..... (mass x climb) / (distance x time) to provide a coefficient (dimensionless number) .....
ML / LT = M / T ???
Climb/distance is gradient - an existing dimensionless number that most people understand.
Not sure what KTH is trying to do with the other quantities in there.

(Can we avoid using upper case for those units?? Just me? ...)
In my previous post the u.c. letters are dimensions - mass, length and time - not units.

I was just wondering what dimensionless number KTHS had in mind.
thirdcrank
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Re: Distance and Total Ascent

Post by thirdcrank »

Is their currently an accurate means of measuring climbing distance available at handlebar-fit level? I have the impression - presumably from something I've read - that these things take a regular sample (?) and the frequency of the sampling affects their accuracy. This might be particularly significant when comparing a long climb or descent with frequent changes of up/down when summits and bottoms might be discounted.
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Chris Jeggo
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Re: Distance and Total Ascent

Post by Chris Jeggo »

thirdcrank wrote: 26 Apr 2021, 3:06pm Is their currently an accurate means of measuring climbing distance available at handlebar-fit level? I have the impression - presumably from something I've read - that these things take a regular sample (?) and the frequency of the sampling affects their accuracy. This might be particularly significant when comparing a long climb or descent with frequent changes of up/down when summits and bottoms might be discounted.
Cycle computers that measure altitude change by barometric pressure are pretty accurate, provided general atmospheric pressure, i.e. the weather, is not changing (much) during the measurements.
mattheus
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Re: Distance and Total Ascent

Post by mattheus »

Chris Jeggo wrote: 26 Apr 2021, 2:43pm
mattheus wrote: 26 Apr 2021, 2:30pm <snip>
(Can we avoid using upper case for those units?? Just me? ...)
In my previous post the u.c. letters are dimensions - mass, length and time - not units.
Aha! My apologies then. I haven't looked at that stuff since university, it's a fading memory ...
thirdcrank
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Re: Distance and Total Ascent

Post by thirdcrank »

Memory vague here, but once when I was looking into this type of thing IIRC there was one taking a height measure perhaps evert twenty seconds. At the bottom of a dip a rider might cover 300 yards in that time, probably less grovelling over a summit. More modern equipment might sample more frequently, but I could imagine that designers might concentrate more on overall height gain rather than accurately measuring every up and down for railing-counting cyclists.
Pebble
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Re: Distance and Total Ascent

Post by Pebble »

I have had my own little system for a few years and it is quite good for me to estimate how long a ride will take. 1 point per mile + 1 point per 100' ascent
therefor 32 mile with 1,800' ascent would = 50 points. if I go at my own pace (inc all stops) I average about 14 points an hour, so just over 4 hours.

I do agree with mick though that rides with many ups and downs seem more tiring than one big hill even if ascent/distance is the same, but I wonder if that is just a bit psychological as you can never get into a good rhythm.
KTHSullivan
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Re: Distance and Total Ascent

Post by KTHSullivan »

I was just wondering what dimensionless number KTHS had in mind.
I was just thinking along the lines of a dimensionless number similar to Reynolds, Prandtl, Nusselt etc. Just a coefficient that can be used to provide a comparison, where the number itself has no units just a means of determining higher or lower levels of "Ouch".
Just remember, when you’re over the hill, you begin to pick up speed. :lol:
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Mick F
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Re: Distance and Total Ascent

Post by Mick F »

Garmin with a BP altimeter system, uses GPS as well as BP.
GPS elevation has priority but the BP used for fine tuning.
Switch it on and leave it long enough, it will be correct despite the barometric pressure and despite if you initially calibrate it or not.

My Garmin Montana is set to record a trackpoint every 4ft of travel up to a maximum of one per second. My previous device was a Garmin Edge 705, and that was set to a trackpoint every second.
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Nessie23
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Re: Distance and Total Ascent

Post by Nessie23 »

Mick F wrote: 26 Apr 2021, 9:06am From my experience, Devon and Cornwall are harder.
Not because of the heights of the hills, because they can't compare to NW Scotland in that regard, but the frequency of the hills.
Constant ups and downs, with no let-up.
Thanks for posting your Lochcarron trip ascent details. The coast road does appear similar to your oft quoted 100ft/mile for cycling in D&C. Hopefully, I will get to make the comparison for myself sometime. Cheers.
ChrisF
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Re: Distance and Total Ascent

Post by ChrisF »

Pebble wrote: 26 Apr 2021, 4:40pm I do agree with mick though that rides with many ups and downs seem more tiring than one big hill even if ascent/distance is the same, but I wonder if that is just a bit psychological as you can never get into a good rhythm.
On this point I agree with Mick as well. I don't think it's psychological; the ride with lost of short steep ups and downs is much more likely to need more use of brakes (because of sharp or blind corners, poor surfaces etc) which is wasted energy.
Chris F, Cornwall
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Distance and Total Ascent

Post by Cyril Haearn »

The big descent surely needs a lot of braking too, but a different type of braking?
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Pebble
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Re: Distance and Total Ascent

Post by Pebble »

ChrisF wrote: 30 Apr 2021, 1:19pm
Pebble wrote: 26 Apr 2021, 4:40pm I do agree with mick though that rides with many ups and downs seem more tiring than one big hill even if ascent/distance is the same, but I wonder if that is just a bit psychological as you can never get into a good rhythm.
On this point I agree with Mick as well. I don't think it's psychological; the ride with lost of short steep ups and downs is much more likely to need more use of brakes (because of sharp or blind corners, poor surfaces etc) which is wasted energy.
The couple of roads that I had in mind were quite straight and no braking. Big descents need a lot more braking cause you get faster and faster. But even then I doubt braking takes much energy out of a ride.
The big loss is wind resistance so going slower is always the best energy saver whether in car or on bike.
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Mick F
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Re: Distance and Total Ascent

Post by Mick F »

Another thought here ...........

Out on a ride today, and only 17miles, but I was riding rather under-dressed.
Shorts, a base layer, a thin top, and LS thin top as an outer layer.

Out to Brent Tor, and back home via Tavistock.
Nice and warm here in the Cornwall side of the Tamar Valley so I was happy in my attire, but climbing up into "England" the windchill was terrible. For most of my ride, I felt that I was freezing the death, and the ride made me feel tense and I found it difficult. Came home worn out from the tension perhaps.

The thing is, as I crossed back over the bridge and into the village and home, the windchill was gone. Warm balmy sunshine without the hard cold wind. May have been only 17miles, but it feels as if I'd done 70miles just due to the tension and stress of the cold.

17.1 miles and 1,750ft of climbing.
Walk in the park, but the cold really made it difficult because I wasn't ready for it.
Screen Shot 2021-04-30 at 19.50.21.png
Mick F. Cornwall
Jamesh
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Re: Distance and Total Ascent

Post by Jamesh »

I'd take twice the steady accent ify the dales compared to Mick F's hills of Cornwall.

I can only think of s couple of hills to match them - greenhow and Sutton bank come to mind.

Cheers James
thirdcrank
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Re: Distance and Total Ascent

Post by thirdcrank »

greenhow and Sutton bank come to mind.
Mere pimples, I fancy.
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