Small(er) wheeled bikes - non folding!

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
Brucey
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Re: Small(er) wheeled bikes - non folding!

Postby Brucey » 22 Jun 2020, 9:04am

want a mini-velo for touring/general purpose? Frame here

https://freshtripe.co.uk/velo-orange-neutrino-frameset/

will take 2.3" tyres on 406 rims

in size 'L' 72 deg seat angle, 530mm EST, 570mm ETT

Builds can look like this

Image
Velo Orange Neutrino

Whether it is 'worth it' probably depends how much you value the overall length of the bike being ~7" shorter than a machine with 27" wheels. Or maybe nearer 9" shorter if you use ~28mm tyres on the 406 rims (gives wheels about 18-1/2" diameter).

I posted this image in another thread recently; it shows 'Velocio' with his small wheeler, some 114 years ago

Image

which makes the Mini-Velo look like an idea which has just come rounds again.

FWIW my 'travel bike' is an old Rudge (Montague) BiFrame. It uses 559 wheels. With ~32mm tyres fitted the wheels are actually ~24-1/2" overall diameter; somewhere between a 20" wheel and a 27" wheel. It is something of a halfway house in terms of the way it rides too.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

simonhill
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Re: Small(er) wheeled bikes - non folding!

Postby simonhill » 22 Jun 2020, 10:07am


fastpedaller
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Location: Norfolk

Re: Small(er) wheeled bikes - non folding!

Postby fastpedaller » 22 Jun 2020, 2:25pm

I took my Rudge montague on a short ride yesterday - decided to do the 'resurfaced' railway track and local heath. I certainly wouldn't have tackled it on my other bikes. The rail track has been made disabled-friendly by flattening some parts and removing tree roots, but the No.1 they claimed to have put down must have been number 10 :( Anybody on a mobility scooter or wheelchair would surely struggle. huge great chunks in several places!

fastpedaller
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Re: Small(er) wheeled bikes - non folding!

Postby fastpedaller » 22 Jun 2020, 2:47pm

[quote="Brucey"]want a mini-velo for touring/general purpose? Frame here

https://freshtripe.co.uk/velo-orange-neutrino-frameset/

will take 2.3" tyres on 406 rims

in size 'L' 72 deg seat angle, 530mm EST, 570mm ETT

Builds can look like this

/quote]

Hmm - not a small- budget site, but according to the spec the weight is 0 grammes, so must be a contender :lol:
I started the thread because I like to see all variety of bikes - I'm of the opinion that all bikes are good as long as they are safe, have round wheels. adequate brakes, and are reliable. The biggest factor is the rider!
I can see what some are saying though...... A Brompton is probably a much better bet than a min velo, with a small loss of 'rideability' compensated for by the great folding. When I had an earlyish Brompton 3 speed, I did an evening 10 (undulating course) in 30:11, so they can go fairly well; The limiting factor was the sometimes too low 2nd gear or too high 3rd gear, but they aren't meant to be racers! Wish I hadn't sold the Brompton (not for the low price I did anyway) but it wasn't being used enough. At a lower price-point (say £350) I think a mini-velo would have good sales.

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velorog
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Re: Small(er) wheeled bikes - non folding!

Postby velorog » 22 Jun 2020, 8:05pm

I have been using a custom built 'mini-velo' for touring holidays for about 15 years. A lot easier for man handling on and off trains and manoeuvring in cramped luggage compartments. The small wheels stand up to a fair amount of abuse from baggage handlers. Mine has survived about 16 international flights in an un-padded bike bag. I've only had to true a wheel once on arrival.

Chris_Wallis.png

Brucey
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Re: Small(er) wheeled bikes - non folding!

Postby Brucey » 22 Jun 2020, 9:17pm

fastpedaller wrote: Hmm - not a small- budget site...….. At a lower price-point (say £350) I think a mini-velo would have good sales.


Just because a frame is meant for small wheels it should be cheaper? FWIW I don't think there are many OTP frames out there with that attention to detail (braze-ons, sliding dropouts for maximum versatllity etc) at any price; in that context £700 for the frameset may start to look more reasonable, because the alternative would presumably be a custom build.


However if they made whole bikes for £350 you wouldn't expect it to be built any different from other £350 bikes, would you? Bike that cost £350 new are usually horribly flawed in some way or other...?

If you want mini-velo function without a high price then you are more or less in the realms of modified Raleigh twenties and Dawes Kingpins. I am told that welding a top tube into either type can result in a much stiffer/stronger main frame.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

fastpedaller
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Re: Small(er) wheeled bikes - non folding!

Postby fastpedaller » 22 Jun 2020, 9:44pm

Brucey wrote:
fastpedaller wrote: Hmm - not a small- budget site...….. At a lower price-point (say £350) I think a mini-velo would have good sales.


Just because a frame is meant for small wheels it should be cheaper? FWIW I don't think there are many OTP frames out there with that attention to detail (braze-ons, sliding dropouts for maximum versatllity etc) at any price; in that context £700 for the frameset may start to look more reasonable, because the alternative would presumably be a custom build.


However if they made whole bikes for £350 you wouldn't expect it to be built any different from other £350 bikes, would you? Bike that cost £350 new are usually horribly flawed in some way or other...?

If you want mini-velo function without a high price then you are more or less in the realms of modified Raleigh twenties and Dawes Kingpins. I am told that welding a top tube into either type can result in a much stiffer/stronger main frame.

cheers


That wasn't my train of thought (though I can understand I may have given that impression). I was thinking along the lines of a single-speed with V brakes, budget model. I understand what you're saying about £350 bikes, but without derailleur, indexing and gear levers I think the sums could add up........ It does appear Alibaba can supply at $100 each, someone could sell 100 of them and turn 10k into 35k :lol: (less adverts, carriage etc)
It won't be me though, I'm too cautious.

ETA - I have to say the Tokyo bike one looks a nice machine for 650

Brucey
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Re: Small(er) wheeled bikes - non folding!

Postby Brucey » 22 Jun 2020, 10:12pm

so a singlespeed bike with 406 wheels? Er, isn't that a BMX with a higher saddle...?.... :wink:

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

fastpedaller
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Re: Small(er) wheeled bikes - non folding!

Postby fastpedaller » 22 Jun 2020, 10:15pm

Brucey wrote:so a singlespeed bike with 406 wheels? Er, isn't that a BMX with a higher saddle...?.... :wink:

cheers


You are correct - surely £350 is too much then?

iandriver
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Re: Small(er) wheeled bikes - non folding!

Postby iandriver » 22 Jun 2020, 10:25pm

I've only ever ridden a 24inch wheeled BMX on a BMX course, with the saddle appropriately low. I'd like to see how it felt with the saddle higher. If you lived by some canals etc, could be kind of fun. Wonder if you could get an IHG in there. .
Supporter of the A10 corridor cycling campaign serving Royston to Cambridge http://a10corridorcycle.com. Never knew gardening secateurs were an essential part of the on bike tool kit until I took up campaigning.....

Brucey
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Re: Small(er) wheeled bikes - non folding!

Postby Brucey » 22 Jun 2020, 11:17pm

fastpedaller wrote:
Brucey wrote:so a singlespeed bike with 406 wheels? Er, isn't that a BMX with a higher saddle...?.... :wink:

cheers


You are correct - surely £350 is too much then?


well, yes.... I'd probably want to be paid to ride it.... :wink: :lol:

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

dondelion
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Re: Small(er) wheeled bikes - non folding!

Postby dondelion » 25 Jun 2020, 2:03pm

A frame builder friend who is a shorter fellow is currently building himself a 20 inch offroad tourer with 3 inch tyre clearance, a pinion drivetrain and a suspension fork. He was aggrieved to find Velo Orange have released something similar as mentioned by Brucey above.

Vee make some big and bouncy tyres for little wheels https://urbandrivestyle.com/products/kopie-von-vee-tire-co-skin-wall-speedster-tire-20-x-4-0

Greystoke
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Re: Small(er) wheeled bikes - non folding!

Postby Greystoke » 26 Jun 2020, 7:22am

Even Argos do one.....challenge urban 20"
Disc brakes etc £200

Ugly
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Re: Small(er) wheeled bikes - non folding!

Postby Ugly » 26 Jun 2020, 12:17pm

This is my 1965 Moulton Automatic with a duomatic 2 speed and coaster hub. £25 at a jumble plus a lot of time and some money.
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simonineaston
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Re: Small(er) wheeled bikes - non folding!

Postby simonineaston » 26 Jun 2020, 12:35pm

The small wheels stand up to a fair amount of abuse from baggage handlers.
It's an aspect of small-wheel bikes that's rarely mentioned. Compared with standard sized wheels (shall we say 26"?), 20 inch wheels are much stronger and as for Moulton's original choice of 16", well, they're virtually indestructable... plus, they take less time & effort to pump up properly.
The extra strength is to do with triangles, I think, the width between flanges being proportionaly much wider. As such, the wheel build could potentialy use fewer spokes than a larger wheel whilst retaining similar if not greater strength, but that benefit is rarely seized. I've favoured Sun CR18 rims 406 rims and have always been slightly puzzled by they're being available with a range of drillings that use large numbers of spokes (28, 32, 36). I bet you could build a decent touring wheel using 24 or even 20 spokes.
EDIT: it has just struck me that the high number of holes could be turned to advantage, so for example, if I were to miss every other spoke from a 36 hole rim, I end up with a wheel built from 18 spokes...
ttfn, Simon in Easton
(currently enjoying a Moulton TSR & a nano Brompton...)