Bestest ever bicycle brakes... ?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Bestest ever bicycle brakes... ?

Postby Brucey » 19 Aug 2020, 3:55pm

mattsccm wrote:Stopping. Nothing else. No dimwits who can'tuse their brakes . No failiures. Stopping! Everything else is another discussion.


er, as per Andrew S mention, Pellaud said;

Effectivement un beau chantier! Rien de cassé (sauf 1-2 dents) mais la plus grosse frayeur de ma carrière! La pire phobie du cycliste?? Se retrouver sans freins en pleine descente ☠️ Les disques c’est top sauf quand.... ça ne freine pas!Merci pour vos messages


..disc brakes are great...until they don't work!...

And that is from someone who is probably being paid to ride them...

Fastest stop possible is probably chucking something in the front wheel. Surely that would be 'best' then...?..... :wink: :roll:

cheers
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reohn2
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Re: Bestest ever bicycle brakes... ?

Postby reohn2 » 19 Aug 2020, 4:19pm

Braking for me is all about being able to stop safely and quickly from any speed riding within my capabilities.
Only idiots or the inexperienced ride on the wrong side of that criteria.
Over the years I've ridden cantis,Vs,single and dual pivot caliper,rim brakes and with a variety of of different pads in search of consistent and safe braking,all goes well until the rain begins and the rims pick up the road or trail muck and grit.
At that point consistency becomes increasingly variable.It's such variability that's a problem.
When we used to ride in winter whatever the weather,we searched for something better,discs eliminated the variability of rim brakes,I wss so impressed was I that I sold my rim braked bikes and went exclusively disc.BB7 cable discs to be precise.
I want for nothing better because IME there isn't anything better,that's a big statement but for me it holds true.
BB7's stop consistently with great modulation and single finger braking,that if I wish will lock up either wheel,they don't wear out rims,they don't compromise comfort because I ride nothing smaller than 700 x 37mm tyres and I can if needs be,strip and repair them by the roadside.
That criteria isn't everyone's criteria but then other people don't have my criteria.

The idea pushed by TUC that better brakes are worse is bunkum because that idea taken to it's logical conclusion is that poor or even no brakes are better.
I've experienced no brakes and I've experienced poor brakes and I prefer consistently good brakes whatever the weather
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Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Bestest ever bicycle brakes... ?

Postby Brucey » 19 Aug 2020, 6:49pm

IME the worst kind of brakes are the ones that are not as good as (or just unexpectedly different from) how anyone expects them to be; this causes more braking-related accidents than anything else.

By that token the best brakes are arguably the most consistent, that are least likely to vary and if/when they do ever vary, they give the most warning of imminent problems.

By those criteria, SA drum brakes make a pretty good showing; better than any other type of brake in several key respects.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pneumant
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Joined: 7 Oct 2010, 8:25pm

Re: Bestest ever bicycle brakes... ?

Postby Pneumant » 19 Aug 2020, 8:19pm

In answer to the thread title (..bestest?!) and for a road bike I nominate the esteemed late 80's Shimano 1050 Single Pivots. An excellent design. Light in weight, smooth & powerful action (ball bearing pivot) with lots of feel, possible to have a firm feeling brake with the blocks not set close to the rim and also possible to easily adjust so the brake arms are the same distance from the rim both sides, the brake will hold this position irrespective of block wear (so no pad adjustment required to compensate for wear -unlike a DPB).
105sp.JPG
I prefer these brakes overall to DPB's.

pedals2slowly
Posts: 222
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 7:50pm

Re: Bestest ever bicycle brakes... ?

Postby pedals2slowly » 19 Aug 2020, 8:21pm

Different fore and aft brakes is irrelevant unless you are trying to save grams by having a smaller rear brake.
Whatever brakes you have you apply different forces with each hand to suit the braking you require.

For weak people with small hands hydraulic brakes are best.

I'm with reohn2 - BB7's cable operated now as standard on Mountain bike, gravel bike, touring bike, winter bike and touring tandem.
I'd fit them to the rest but hydraulic discs are OK, calipers suit the classics and dad's 1950's Elswick would probably crumble under the braking forces.

If you did a table of pro's and con's, gave value judgements with numbers and added up the scores, disc brakes would beat all other brakes hands down.

Disc brakes are the best.................but some are not :?

pedals2slowly
Posts: 222
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 7:50pm

Re: Bestest ever bicycle brakes... ?

Postby pedals2slowly » 19 Aug 2020, 8:22pm

Pneumant wrote:In answer to the thread title (..bestest?!) and for a road bike I nominate the esteemed late 80's Shimano 1050 Single Pivots. An excellent design. Light in weight, smooth & powerful action (ball bearing pivot) with lots of feel, possible to have a firm feeling brake with the blocks not set close to the rim and also possible to easily adjust so the brake arms are the same distance from the rim both sides, the brake will hold this position irrespective of block wear (so no pad adjustment required to compensate for wear -unlike a DPB).
105sp.JPG I prefer these brakes overall to DPB's.


But crap in the pouring rain and (unbelievably) designed to wear away one of the most important structural parts of your bicycle - the rim! :lol:

Brucey
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Re: Bestest ever bicycle brakes... ?

Postby Brucey » 19 Aug 2020, 9:17pm

pedals2slowly wrote:If you did a table of pro's and con's, gave value judgements with numbers and added up the scores, disc brakes would beat all other brakes hands down.


I disagree; they have many shortcomings including

- susceptibility to contamination
- lag in the wet (so inconsistent in action, but not in a predictable way(*))
- rapid pad wear in the wet
- vulnerability to accidental damage
- maintenance hungry
- not designed for UK conditions (I have yet to see one that definitely won't fail in a couple of UK winters)
- imposes unnecessary loads on fork, hub bearings, hub, and spokes
- weigh more than rim brakes
- risk of accidental injury from disc in accident
- risk of accidental burns from hot discs when you climb off the bike
- discs make wheel maintenance more difficult
- dished front wheels are necessary with disc brakes, which means weaker/heavier wheels
- huge and pointless variation in pad designs means sourcing spare pads is needlessly difficult (cf rim brake where two brake block fitments would cover >95% of bikes)
- similar proliferation of caliper mount designs leads to even more built-in obsolescence
- lack of spare parts for most disc systems means failure of trivial parts (eg seals) leads to scrappage of the system
- wheel retention problems
- 'quick release' wheels are not 'quick release' any more with disc brakes
- endless problems with disc rub
- wheel changes often cause problems and that is if they work at all, such is the variety of disc sizes and exact alignments
- disc systems have several ways in which they can fail completely and without any warning whatsoever
- disc pad friction coefficients vary with pad temperature such that you have to be able to modulate the brake power in a wide variety of situations.


and that is just off the top of my head; plenty more of that to come..... 'Best'...? I asked 'best for what?' upthread but in any event for many purposes.....discs are best...? I don't think so! There is plenty of room for improvement and there are other brakes which do not share some of these unwanted attributes. Horses for courses!

(*) Of their many flaws I consider this to be the most serious, in combination with the thing that sells these brakes to those who perhaps have not thought through all the consequences, being brake power. I've mentioned this before but from about 15-20mph you should be aiming to have the brakes on for a little over one second to bring yourself to a halt in an emergency, if you have powerful brakes. And in an emergency this will be 'cold', i.e. you have to be able to put the brakes on 'blind' and get maximum retardation in the first half a second, i.e. before you will have time to react to the actual state of the brakes and be able to usefully modulate them. In this situation brakes that are sometimes massively powerful are nothing but a hinderance; you cannot apply them 'full gas' without risking going over the bars (and you will go over the bars before you can react; I have seen it happen). If you apply at some lower force, react and then modulate up to full power then that is no good either, you won't go over the bars but you will probably exceed the minimum stopping distance before you even modulate the brakes to full power. Worse than that should the brakes be wet practically nothing will happen for about half a second (or more), with a similar effect on stopping distance. [Wet rim brakes may even come 'on' quicker than some discs because the rim brakes will be applied 'full gas' and the disc brakes not.]

So disc brakes may give an illusion of power, control etc but in a emergency when you really need that power, you can't use it safely/swiftly and they are often worse in actual result to supposedly inferior brakes.

The 'morer is always betterer' mantra is wrong; needs 'morer better' thinking about.... :roll:

A brake that is sized/specified so that it cannot flip you over the handlebars can usually be applied 'full gas' and will produce better emergency stops. If it is more consistent too then it is even better again.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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foxyrider
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Re: Bestest ever bicycle brakes... ?

Postby foxyrider » 19 Aug 2020, 9:28pm

Brucey wrote:
pedals2slowly wrote:If you did a table of pro's and con's, gave value judgements with numbers and added up the scores, disc brakes would beat all other brakes hands down.


I disagree; they have many shortcomings including

- susceptibility to contamination
- lag in the wet (so inconsistent in action, but not in a predictable way(*))
- rapid pad wear in the wet
- vulnerability to accidental damage
- maintenance hungry
- not designed for UK conditions (I have yet to see one that definitely won't fail in a couple of UK winters)
- imposes unnecessary loads on fork, hub bearings, hub, and spokes
- weigh more than rim brakes
- risk of accidental injury from disc in accident
- risk of accidental burns from hot discs when you climb off the bike
- discs make wheel maintenance more difficult
- dished front wheels are necessary with disc brakes, which means weaker/heavier wheels
- huge and pointless variation in pad designs means sourcing spare pads is needlessly difficult (cf rim brake where two brake block fitments would cover >95% of bikes)
- similar proliferation of caliper mount designs leads to even more built-in obsolescence
- lack of spare parts for most disc systems means failure of trivial parts (eg seals) leads to scrappage of the system
- wheel retention problems
- 'quick release' wheels are not 'quick release' any more with disc brakes
- endless problems with disc rub
- wheel changes often cause problems and that is if they work at all, such is the variety of disc sizes and exact alignments
- disc systems have several ways in which they can fail completely and without any warning whatsoever
- disc pad friction coefficients vary with pad temperature such that you have to be able to modulate the brake power in a wide variety of situations.


and that is just off the top of my head; plenty more of that to come..... 'Best'...? I asked 'best for what?' upthread but in any event for many purposes.....discs are best...? I don't think so! There is plenty of room for improvement and there are other brakes which do not share some of these unwanted attributes. Horses for courses!

(*) Of their many flaws I consider this to be the most serious, in combination with the thing that sells these brakes to those who perhaps have not thought through all the consequences, being brake power. I've mentioned this before but from about 15-20mph you should be aiming to have the brakes on for a little over one second to bring yourself to a halt in an emergency, if you have powerful brakes. And in an emergency this will be 'cold', i.e. you have to be able to put the brakes on 'blind' and get maximum retardation in the first half a second, i.e. before you will have time to react to the actual state of the brakes and be able to usefully modulate them. In this situation brakes that are sometimes massively powerful are nothing but a hinderance; you cannot apply them 'full gas' without risking going over the bars (and you will go over the bars before you can react; I have seen it happen). If you apply at some lower force, react and then modulate up to full power then that is no good either, you won't go over the bars but you will probably exceed the minimum stopping distance before you even modulate the brakes to full power. Worse than that should the brakes be wet practically nothing will happen for about half a second (or more), with a similar effect on stopping distance. [Wet rim brakes may even come 'on' quicker than some discs because the rim brakes will be applied 'full gas' and the disc brakes not.]

So disc brakes may give an illusion of power, control etc but in a emergency when you really need that power, you can't use it safely/swiftly and they are often worse in actual result to supposedly inferior brakes.

The 'morer is always betterer' mantra is wrong; needs 'morer better' thinking about.... :roll:

A brake that is sized/specified so that it cannot flip you over the handlebars can usually be applied 'full gas' and will produce better emergency stops. If it is more consistent too then it is even better again.

cheers


+1 - wot he says :D
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!

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foxyrider
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Re: Bestest ever bicycle brakes... ?

Postby foxyrider » 19 Aug 2020, 9:45pm

Mick F wrote:So ............ why are (some) bicycle brakes the same front and rear?
Cheapness and simplicity?

All my disc brake bikes have smaller rotors on the rear when compared to the front.
Excellent, but am I not right by saying it's not the same on all bikes?[/quote]

First generation road bikes with discs (and indeed atb and hybrids) all had 160 front and rear, 140 wasn't even a thing! My Mares was delivered like this, i've since changed the front to 180 in the hope of improving the diabolical performance of the brakes but to no avail, they still over heat, eat pads and rotors, have no real modulation and i wish i could fit rim brakes to that bike. :( :?
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!

pedals2slowly
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Re: Bestest ever bicycle brakes... ?

Postby pedals2slowly » 19 Aug 2020, 10:34pm

Wow, I seem to have stirred a hornet's nest!

Brucey wrote:
pedals2slowly wrote:If you did a table of pro's and con's, gave value judgements with numbers and added up the scores, disc brakes would beat all other brakes hands down.


I disagree; they have many shortcomings including

- susceptibility to contamination UNLIKE RIMS BRAKES ON A MUDDY TRACK THEN??? :lol:
- lag in the wet (so inconsistent in action, but not in a predictable way(*)) NO DIFFERENT TO RIM BRAKES
- rapid pad wear in the wet LESS THAN RIM BRAKES!!!!
- vulnerability to accidental damage NO (CANTIS' ARE FAR WORSE)
- maintenance hungry YES - MINOR NO - MAJOR
- not designed for UK conditions (I have yet to see one that definitely won't fail in a couple of UK winters) MUCH BETTER THAN RIM BRAKES
- imposes unnecessary loads on fork, hub bearings, hub, and spokes 'UNNECESSARY'??
- weigh more than rim brakes ACCEPTED BUT NOT SIGNIFICANT FOR MOST USERS
- risk of accidental injury from disc in accident VERY UNLIKELY IN NORMAL CYCLING
- risk of accidental burns from hot discs when you climb off the bike HOW MANY PEOPLE TOUCH THEIR DISCS???
- discs make wheel maintenance more difficult NO
- dished front wheels are necessary with disc brakes, which means weaker/heavier wheels ACCEPTED BUT NOT SIGNIFICANT FOR MAJORITY OF USERS
- huge and pointless variation in pad designs means sourcing spare pads is needlessly difficult (cf rim brake where two brake block fitments would cover >95% of bikes) ACCEPTED BUT...........HA HA - MULTITUDE OF FITTINGS REQUIRED ACROSS CANTI/V/CALIPERS
- similar proliferation of caliper mount designs leads to even more built-in obsolescence ACCEPTED BUT NOT SIGNIFICANT FOR MOST BUYERS
- lack of spare parts for most disc systems means failure of trivial parts (eg seals) leads to scrappage of the system ACCEPTED BUT NOT SIGNIFICANT FOR MOST BUYERS
- wheel retention problems NO
- 'quick release' wheels are not 'quick release' any more with disc brakes QR WHEELS WITH DISCS ARE FINE
- endless problems with disc rub 'SOME' NOT 'ENDLESS'
- wheel changes often cause problems and that is if they work at all, such is the variety of disc sizes and exact alignments ACCEPTED BUT VERY FEW PEOPLE CHANGE WHEELS
- disc systems have several ways in which they can fail completely and without any warning whatsoever NO
- disc pad friction coefficients vary with pad temperature such that you have to be able to modulate the brake power in a wide variety of situations. JUST LIKE RIM BRAKES IN DIFFERENT WEATHER CONDITIONS THEN


and that is just off the top of my head; plenty more of that to come..... 'Best'...? I asked 'best for what?' upthread but in any event for many purposes.....discs are best...? I don't think so! There is plenty of room for improvement and there are other brakes which do not share some of these unwanted attributes. Horses for courses! BUT THE OTHER BRAKES LOSE OUT IN SO MANY OTHER WAYS

(*) Of their many flaws I consider this to be the most serious, in combination with the thing that sells these brakes to those who perhaps have not thought through all the consequences, being brake power. I've mentioned this before but from about 15-20mph you should be aiming to have the brakes on for a little over one second to bring yourself to a halt in an emergency, if you have powerful brakes. And in an emergency this will be 'cold', i.e. you have to be able to put the brakes on 'blind' and get maximum retardation in the first half a second, i.e. before you will have time to react to the actual state of the brakes and be able to usefully modulate them. In this situation brakes that are sometimes massively powerful are nothing but a hinderance; you cannot apply them 'full gas' without risking going over the bars (and you will go over the bars before you can react; I have seen it happen). If you apply at some lower force, react and then modulate up to full power then that is no good either, you won't go over the bars but you will probably exceed the minimum stopping distance before you even modulate the brakes to full power. Worse than that should the brakes be wet practically nothing will happen for about half a second (or more), with a similar effect on stopping distance. [Wet rim brakes may even come 'on' quicker than some discs because the rim brakes will be applied 'full gas' and the disc brakes not.] YOU ARE STARTING TO SOUND LIKE RICHARD HALLETT NOW BUT EVEN HE SEEMS TO BE LESS ANTI-DISC BRAKES THESE DAYS

So disc brakes may give an illusion of power, control etc but in a emergency when you really need that power, you can't use it safely/swiftly and they are often worse in actual result to supposedly inferior brakes. SO WRONG

The 'morer is always betterer' mantra is wrong; needs 'morer better' thinking about.... :roll:

A brake that is sized/specified so that it cannot flip you over the handlebars can usually be applied 'full gas' and will produce better emergency stops. If it is more consistent too then it is even better again.

cheers


The key is - give value judgements with numbers and added up the scores - disc brakes win hands down.

No lengthy intellectual diatribe will win over practical hands on riding experience - for me (just me maybe) you can't beat disc brakes.
I won't be buying any new bikes without them.

bazzo
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Re: Bestest ever bicycle brakes... ?

Postby bazzo » 19 Aug 2020, 11:03pm

fastpedaller wrote:
kylecycler wrote:Remember that until around 20 years ago, the normal arrangement on 'everyday' cars was disc brake front, drum brake rear. AFAIK drum brakes were only phased out with the universal adoption of anti-lock braking systems, which couldn't be made to work with drums.



Our 2016 car has drums on the rear. It also has ABS and ESC(Electronic stability control -as dictated for cars first sold after 2012).
I've worked in the auto industry, and the main reason for fitting rear discs to most cars is fashion. The handbrake (correctly called parking brake) performance with drums is far superior to discs, and difficult to engineers effectively on discs. On all modern cars with front wheel drive the braking provided by drums on the rear wheels is more than enough and has to be limited to prevent lock-up. Some very high performance (usually rear -wheel drive and mid/rear engined) cars benefit from rear discs.


I seem to remember Mercs in the 1970’s had rear disc brakes, with drum brakes as well just the handbrake.

reohn2
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Re: Bestest ever bicycle brakes... ?

Postby reohn2 » 19 Aug 2020, 11:44pm

It wouldn't be such a bad idea if the discssion about car brakes,disc or otherwise,was cut from the discussion as they bear no resemblence to any bicycle brake whatsoever
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Brucey
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Re: Bestest ever bicycle brakes... ?

Postby Brucey » 20 Aug 2020, 12:34am

pedals2slowly wrote:The key is - give value judgements with numbers and added up the scores - disc brakes win hands down.


er, no. As above. I have not read your 'reply' because it is such a shouty-looking dog's breakfast and probably no better thought out either.

No lengthy intellectual diatribe will win over practical hands on riding experience - for me (just me maybe) you can't beat disc brakes.
I won't be buying any new bikes without them.


what makes you think that my views are not based on practical experience? I've been riding bikes for many decades and I've used pretty much every kind of brake going, including disc brakes for over twenty years. I've also got a good enough science training to cut through the crap and get to some real facts rather than believe hype and nonsense.

I gave up using disc brakes on my commuting bike because practical experience told me that if someone stepped off the pavement in front of me and the brakes might be wet, I'd be worse off than if I was riding a bike with steel rims and crappy side pulls, because I knew they would be rubbish but the disc brakes would be utter crap or try and throw me over the bars with a small change in how wet they were. Different pads improved matters but didn't cure the problem, and the effect was less predictable than with rim brakes. These were brakes that once dried off, worked brilliantly. Sadly they were no use whatsoever in the real world. There are better brakes than that. Simple.

I repeat, brakes that can throw you over the handlebars can be ****ing dangerous.. I've had the miserable but ultimately enlightening experience of seeing on of my chums lob himself over the handlebars and then the whole ambulance bit; he nearly died. All because he (briefly) believed the moronic 'morer = betterer' mantra. As it happens his brakes were not disc brakes but by number I've ridden more bikes with disc brakes that are like that. Pointless and stupid; more likely to cause an accident than prevent one.

As I mentioned upthread, the thing that causes most brake related accidents is not lack of power, it is more power than you can safely use and/or the brakes not being 100% predictable when first applied. Many disc brakes suffer from both problems. The idea that they are 'always best' is just laughable.

cheers
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MartinC
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Re: Bestest ever bicycle brakes... ?

Postby MartinC » 20 Aug 2020, 8:42am

pedals2slowly wrote:.....The key is - give value judgements with numbers and added up the scores - disc brakes win hands down.......


.......but only if we use your values. Others may vary.

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al_yrpal
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Re: Bestest ever bicycle brakes... ?

Postby al_yrpal » 20 Aug 2020, 8:56am

Rejection of disk brakes reminds me of rejection of the horseless carriage! :lol:

Al
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