why the 'what three words' TV ad is so annoying?

[[XAP]Bob]

the whole point surely is that it doesn't matter if you remember those numbers or words easily or not; you can only get the words using a device that knows vis GPS where you are, and you can communicate those co-ordinates to others electronically in whatever format suits you. W3W just adds a (probably pointless) extra loop into the process.

cheers

You may have voice connectivity but no data...

Don't know if the WTW app has a store of the words or if it relies on a data connection to retrieve them.

[thirdcrank]

I really have had a lot of experience of this, although not recent.

One of the most well-publicised cases was when a 999 call was made to the fire brigade requesting cutting equipment to be taken to Hillsborough soccer stadium, the call taker asked which road it was on. I've no connection with South Yorkshire or its emergency services but I'll say with some confidence that the FB's system was based on road names.

I'm a careful sort of a chap and I try to have my hindsight beforehand. If a similar call had been received at that time by West Yorkshire Police, you wouldn't have needed an A-level in geography to know that Elland Road stadium was on Elland Road, but typing in Elland Road to the utterly rubbish command and control would have brought up around a dozen bits of Elland Road, all the way from Leeds to Elland, with several separate sub-divisional control rooms en route. As I think I've already posted, "our system" demanded a grid reference which not a lot of people know, especially under pressure. (There was one GR possibly 600300 which it always accepted so that often went it, and the machine later corrected it when the full address was known.)

[Will]

the whole point surely is that it doesn't matter if you remember those numbers or words easily or not; you can only get the words using a device that knows vis GPS where you are, and you can communicate those co-ordinates to others electronically in whatever format suits you. W3W just adds a (probably pointless) extra loop into the process.

cheers

You may have voice connectivity but no data...

Don't know if the WTW app has a store of the words or if it relies on a data connection to retrieve them.

If you install the app then it can be used offline.

Will

[[XAP]Bob]

Later, touring in France in a motor home for the first time with GPS, the camp site guide had GPS references.
However they weren't quite the same an the UK ones and I had to compile a translation table from Foreign to UK before I could set the correct destination.
A long time ago but something about being + or - from a line of longitude IIRC.

If you go to Greenwich with a GPS and stand on the line depicting 0 degrees it will say you are about 5 seconds off. The 0 degrees used by GPS is about 120m away.

Will

Depends on your GPS unit, and which geode it uses.
Fascinating topic, but I suspect far too geeky for here... but the earth isn't just not a perfect sphere, it's also not a perfect oblate spheroid... or any regular shape.

[sjs]

mjr wrote "Strangely, I can find one that will do UK postcodes but not OS grid references " ie share.

I have the OS Locate app on my Android phone. Bottom left of the screen is "Share" button. It says it shares to "Message" and "Email".

Locus Map can share location as an OS grid reference, on Android. Also has an option to share a screenshot of the current map, which I suppose might be a useful feature in some circumstances (though obviously, fairly easy to do manually).

[sjs]

I know all about these sort of errors as many years ago I had to manually correct serial numbers that had been incorrectly recorded (you soon come to understand how difficult it is for people to record sequences of digits and letters consistently). Transposition errors are quite common, as are problems with repeated characters. It is much easier for people to repeat natural words than it is for them to repeat a sequence of numbers and letters.

Will

For this reason I am very careful about paying money into bank accounts online. I barely trust myself not to make an error with a sort code or account number. At least there's now a check made on the account name before the payment is made.

[mjr]

The words in W3W are used in such a way that making a error is immediately obvious (since it would give you a location far away from the expected area).

I seem to recall Mick F managing to get a location a few miles away. If he'd sent that location to Devon&Cornwall Police, they'd be looking in the wrong place for him.

If the three words provided do not give a location in the expected area then there is an error, and the operator can immediately ask the person to repeat the words again (and if necessary get them to spell them).

But what's the expected area? To use Richard F's famous example, confusing manager.nails.secretary and manager.nail.secretary will mislead the Texas Rangers - and there are plenty of other examples ending up in the same state or district, like dill.quad.spill and dill.quad.spilled.

If you are giving a plus code and make an error (such as transposing digits) then you could be several kilometers out but not know it.

Well, yes, but my suggestion is that people take much more care when reading or writing postcodes and plus codes than they do with words.

I know all about these sort of errors as many years ago I had to manually correct serial numbers that had been incorrectly recorded (you soon come to understand how difficult it is for people to record sequences of digits and letters consistently). Transposition errors are quite common, as are problems with repeated characters. It is much easier for people to repeat natural words than it is for them to repeat a sequence of numbers and letters.

I disagree because I spent some time as a postgrad reviewing coding of personal records. Misspelt names and addresses were much more common than fluffed ID codes and postcodes. Transposition errors are indeed quite common, but still rarer than mangled words.

Ultimately, the answer is to get people to tap "Send Location..." and not insert human transcriptions into the process if it's avoidable, but if it is, then the usual precautions (phonetic alphabets, readbacks and so on) should be used, not discarded.

[Will]

If you are giving a plus code and make an error (such as transposing digits) then you could be several kilometers out but not know it.

Well, yes, but my suggestion is that people take much more care when reading or writing postcodes and plus codes than they do with words.

It deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe

Will

[Nigel]

mjr wrote "Strangely, I can find one that will do UK postcodes but not OS grid references " ie share.

I have the OS Locate app on my Android phone. Bottom left of the screen is "Share" button. It says it shares to "Message" and "Email".

Yes, and its not the only tool which will do it.
The OS Locate text message reads "I am here NT 343 291 sent by OS Locate app. " (I made up the grid numbers).

If the app is installed, the phone only needs voice+text (SMS) connection. As text generally works even when voice is marginal, that's about as reliable as a phone can get on poor signal.



- Nigel

[Mick F]

I'm sure we covered this the last time what three ducks was debunked: open Apple Maps or Google Maps, tap the blue dot that shows your location, then tap Share My Location

Yep, that works too .......... in just the same way.

This relies on what?
W3W and or Apple Maps.

How do you tell anyone where you are?
OS grid ref is "universal" and lat long similarly. How do you transmit them?

You need a smart phone and an app.

[Will]

If the three words provided do not give a location in the expected area then there is an error, and the operator can immediately ask the person to repeat the words again (and if necessary get them to spell them).

But what's the expected area? To use Richard F's famous example, confusing manager.nails.secretary and manager.nail.secretary will mislead the Texas Rangers - and there are plenty of other examples ending up in the same state or district, like dill.quad.spill and dill.quad.spilled.

If you enter ///manager.nails.secretary then you get three possible matches:

///manager.nails.secretary near Hebbronville, Texas Shown as Brooks County on the map below
///manage.nails.secretary near Taroom, Queensland
///manager.nail.secretary near La Pryor, Texas Shown as Crystal City on the map below

An operator handling a 911 call will be local to the person making the call. 911 calls for Brooks County are handled in Falfurrias, about 30km away. The operator simply has to confirm that the person is near Hebbronville (i.e. in Brooks County). The operator is unlikely to be dealing with 911 calls from someone in Crystal City (nearly 250km away).

If the person had to read out a Google Plus Code, then they could mis-read it and still get a valid location. The Plus Code for Brooks County is 76V33GGQ+2F. If the person reading it mis-read it and said 76V3366Q+2F (i.e. mistook the Gs for 6s - which is easily done) then they would still get a valid location, but one that is about 30km west of his true location (shown as the big pin on the map). The operator would not be able to tell that the Plus Code contains an error and would dispatch the emergency services to the wrong place.

It is far, far easier to identify when an error has been made when using 3 words than it is using Plus Codes. And when you know there is an error you can take steps to correct it.



The other W3W example you mentioned (dill.quad.spill and dill.quad.spilled) are about 1500km apart. It would be pretty hard to get them mixed up,

Will

[Manc33]

GPS only covers up to a certain latitude North and South, for example there's people in Alaska claiming their sat nav on their Toyota doesn't work... which is strange since we are told it uses satellites in space.

[simonineaston]

we are told it uses satellites in space.

yeahbut they only go round the middle, innit they don't go round the edge...

[rareposter]

GPS only covers up to a certain latitude North and South, for example there's people in Alaska claiming their sat nav on their Toyota doesn't work... which is strange since we are told it uses satellites in space.

It takes a while to get a signal but if it's using GPS and GLOSNASS, it's pretty accurate. I've seen a picture of a GPS at the exact South Pole and it knows where it is but can't really display it accurately. The Lat says 89˚ 59.999′ (it can't display 90) while the longitude flips around all over the place because the longitude lines all converge at the Poles.

They keep putting in correctional algorithms into the units and satellites, especially with the Arctic (in particular) opening up more and more with climate change.

[mjr]

An operator handling a 911 call will be local to the person making the call.

As already discussed, a 911 call operator has other ways to identify the location of the person making the call. That is not a good reason for w3w.