Bob Jackson's shutting up

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
alexnharvey
Posts: 1273
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:39am

Re: Bob Jackson's shutting up

Postby alexnharvey » 16 Oct 2020, 2:28pm

I think that framebuilders are sticking bits of metal together with brazing/soldering, lugs or welds and I think it's very important that they do this with skill and care so that they stay stuck for good and so that the frame tubes are not damaged in the process. I think it's important that they understand through training and experience whether they've achieved this.

It's very important to me that the things I build as a hobby (not bikes) don't fail, whether they're soldered, glued, bolted or welded. Your colleague and I used the same word, I don't think you can or should infer very much from it.

Mike Sales
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Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Bob Jackson's shutting up

Postby Mike Sales » 16 Oct 2020, 2:34pm

alexnharvey wrote:It's very important to me that the things I build as a hobby (not bikes) don't fail, whether they're soldered, glued, bolted or welded. Your colleague and I used the same word, I don't think you can or should infer very much from it.


Too true. I have stuck several boats together with glue, and ventured across the North Sea in one.
Polyurethane and epoxy resin.

alexnharvey
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Re: Bob Jackson's shutting up

Postby alexnharvey » 16 Oct 2020, 2:42pm

My boats only made it around inland waters Mike but they're still floating.

pete75
Posts: 13295
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Bob Jackson's shutting up

Postby pete75 » 16 Oct 2020, 3:08pm

alexnharvey wrote:I think that framebuilders are sticking bits of metal together with brazing/soldering, lugs or welds and I think it's very important that they do this with skill and care so that they stay stuck for good and so that the frame tubes are not damaged in the process. I think it's important that they understand through training and experience whether they've achieved this.

It's very important to me that the things I build as a hobby (not bikes) don't fail, whether they're soldered, glued, bolted or welded. Your colleague and I used the same word, I don't think you can or should infer very much from it.


He didn't use the word that it's what we said about his work.. A weld that does no more than stick the metal together will soon fail. It needs decent penetration if it's going to last.

pete75
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Re: Bob Jackson's shutting up

Postby pete75 » 16 Oct 2020, 3:09pm

Mike Sales wrote:
alexnharvey wrote:It's very important to me that the things I build as a hobby (not bikes) don't fail, whether they're soldered, glued, bolted or welded. Your colleague and I used the same word, I don't think you can or should infer very much from it.


Too true. I have stuck several boats together with glue, and ventured across the North Sea in one.
Polyurethane and epoxy resin.

Something like an Eventide?

Mike Sales
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Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Bob Jackson's shutting up

Postby Mike Sales » 16 Oct 2020, 3:19pm

pete75 wrote:Something like an Eventide?


8.5m. catamaran.
Woods Gypsy.
Rather more structural stresses than a monohull.

alexnharvey
Posts: 1273
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:39am

Re: Bob Jackson's shutting up

Postby alexnharvey » 16 Oct 2020, 3:24pm

pete75 wrote:
alexnharvey wrote:I think that framebuilders are sticking bits of metal together with brazing/soldering, lugs or welds and I think it's very important that they do this with skill and care so that they stay stuck for good and so that the frame tubes are not damaged in the process. I think it's important that they understand through training and experience whether they've achieved this.

It's very important to me that the things I build as a hobby (not bikes) don't fail, whether they're soldered, glued, bolted or welded. Your colleague and I used the same word, I don't think you can or should infer very much from it.


He didn't use the word that it's what we said about his work.. A weld that does no more than stick the metal together will soon fail. It needs decent penetration if it's going to last.


Again you just ignore the bits that don't suit you, I already addressed the importance of creating a joint that lasts above.

alexnharvey wrote:I think it's very important that they do this with skill and care so that they stay stuck for good


Words are arbitrarily applicable relations, not formal properties.

Jamesh
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Joined: 2 Jan 2017, 5:56pm

Re: Bob Jackson's shutting up

Postby Jamesh » 16 Oct 2020, 3:41pm

I think they didn't plan or have a succession plan in place.

Any firm which dosen't look at nurturing younger talent is on a hiding to nowhere.

Handmade bikes are still in demand see the bespoked exhibition.

I know a local garage that race preps classic minis at 50-80k each and his apprentices often get headhunted on to F1

Skilled artisans will always be in demand.

Perhaps covid meant that seeing customers was too risky? I can sympathize with that aspect.

Cheers James

pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Bob Jackson's shutting up

Postby pete75 » 16 Oct 2020, 3:50pm

alexnharvey wrote:
pete75 wrote:
alexnharvey wrote:I think that framebuilders are sticking bits of metal together with brazing/soldering, lugs or welds and I think it's very important that they do this with skill and care so that they stay stuck for good and so that the frame tubes are not damaged in the process. I think it's important that they understand through training and experience whether they've achieved this.

It's very important to me that the things I build as a hobby (not bikes) don't fail, whether they're soldered, glued, bolted or welded. Your colleague and I used the same word, I don't think you can or should infer very much from it.


He didn't use the word that it's what we said about his work.. A weld that does no more than stick the metal together will soon fail. It needs decent penetration if it's going to last.


Again you just ignore the bits that don't suit you, I already addressed the importance of creating a joint that lasts above.

alexnharvey wrote:I think it's very important that they do this with skill and care so that they stay stuck for good


Words are arbitrarily applicable relations, not formal properties.


The point with welding is that welds which merely stick the weld together won't stay stuck for very long. Doesn't matter how much skill and care you put into the sticking it ain't going to last. Properly done welding causes the items to fuse together not merely stick to each other.

pete75
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Re: Bob Jackson's shutting up

Postby pete75 » 16 Oct 2020, 3:52pm

Mike Sales wrote:
pete75 wrote:Something like an Eventide?


8.5m. catamaran.
Woods Gypsy.
Rather more structural stresses than a monohull.

Did you keep it at Surfleet Seas End. There was a cat there for a while.

whoof
Posts: 2472
Joined: 29 Apr 2014, 2:13pm

Re: Bob Jackson's shutting up

Postby whoof » 16 Oct 2020, 3:58pm

alexnharvey wrote:
whoof wrote:
alexnharvey wrote:I think you've missed my point whoof. If you're already exhibiting at a show as a framebuilding sole trader/partnership, why would you want to start as an apprentice at BJ. Why would you go from completing custom/bespoke frames to (presumably) starting with the "apprentice jobs" at BJ before you're even let loose with a torch :)?


Because this demonstrates that there are people and a lot more than I would have imagined, in the UK building frames and they all started somewhere. This shows there is a good base of young people who are willing to learn this skill if given the opportunity.



About 22 UK framebuilders exhibited by my count.

Does it show there is a good base of young people willing to learn? A good number of those Uk framebuilding exhibitors are career switchers and retired people.

Would any of you be encouraging your kids to take up framebuilding? I'd support mine to do it as a hobby but you only have to look at the number that can't make it work to see how tough it is as a career. What's the market for UK custom bikes each year? A few thousand? Not a very big pie to split up and to get your share you have to compete with the established names and the 'advanced hobbyists', retirees and sidegiggers.


Yes, I would encourage someone to take up frame building if that's what they wanted to do.

Small businesses tend to be good at the core of what they do; building bikes, plumbing, sweeping chimneys. What they are often not so good at are the other things; communicating with customers, finance, dealing with suppliers, HR and setting up training programs. This is because they are bike builders, plumbers and chimney sweeps.

Mike Sales
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Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Bob Jackson's shutting up

Postby Mike Sales » 16 Oct 2020, 4:00pm

pete75 wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
pete75 wrote:Something like an Eventide?


8.5m. catamaran.
Woods Gypsy.
Rather more structural stresses than a monohull.

Did you keep it at Surfleet Seas End. There was a cat there for a while.


Perhaps you mean Fosdyke Bridge, to which the answer is would be yes. An angular, red beast.
It takes long enough to get to the sea from there, Surfleet Reservoir would be too tedious. I used to keep a boat in the Menai Straits so I am rather spoilt.

alexnharvey
Posts: 1273
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:39am

Re: Bob Jackson's shutting up

Postby alexnharvey » 16 Oct 2020, 4:13pm

pete75 wrote:
alexnharvey wrote:
pete75 wrote:
He didn't use the word that it's what we said about his work.. A weld that does no more than stick the metal together will soon fail. It needs decent penetration if it's going to last.


Again you just ignore the bits that don't suit you, I already addressed the importance of creating a joint that lasts above.

alexnharvey wrote:I think it's very important that they do this with skill and care so that they stay stuck for good


Words are arbitrarily applicable relations, not formal properties.


The point with welding is that welds which merely stick the weld together won't stay stuck for very long. Doesn't matter how much skill and care you put into the sticking it ain't going to last. Properly done welding causes the items to fuse together not merely stick to each other.


"Stuck together" can range from 'post-it' note on paper to the various bits of mike's boat, just as it could refer to anything from a tack weld to a fully fused joint. "Stuck" is not sufficient in itself to define a joint, we might say "that's well stuck together" or " that's barely stuck together". The beauty of language is in its flexibility and that stems from its use in context. I don't care very much for you deciding that a word I have used must mean what you would like it to in this instance so you can make some barely related point for reasons that bewilder me. Now you've decided to focus on welded joints so you can differentiate between 'stuck' and 'fused' whereas you couldn't do that with brazing and soldering. I understand what you're saying quite easily, why you're at pains to misunderstand me each time is your difficulty.

I thought it would've been very clear that I was differentiating between those who are joining tubes together in some way (a small number of people) and those who are thinking about joining them together (a much larger number) and that the choice of the word stuck is just a shorthand for the various ways of joining one tube to another. Sadly it was not sufficient, for you at least.

It seems that any attempt to clarify is again taken out of context or ignored.

nirakaro
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Re: Bob Jackson's shutting up

Postby nirakaro » 16 Oct 2020, 5:13pm

Oh but pedantry is such fun. That warm glow of being certain that you're right. Even if you're not.

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gaz
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Re: Bob Jackson's shutting up

Postby gaz » 16 Oct 2020, 8:17pm

I don't know what they used but it hasn't come unstuck - yet.
IMG_20201016_124430.jpg
Bike from a Northern Town
He's got Bette Davis knees.