Superwheel - how does this work ?

[backnotes]

The Super Wheel patent application is here https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/ ... =PCTBIBLIO hiding in plain sight as an "energy transfer system".

Drawing 7 shows what goes on inside the hub. There seem to be a lot of moving parts that will potentially need lubrication and may wear over time. The moving levers that press on springs attached to the spokes are shown as protruding through slots in the hub. Without some kind of seal or gaiter around each lever, I can see weather and general gunge quickly taking their toll on the insides. It also looks like a recipe for annoying creaks and graunching noises over time.

Buried in the patent application is a statement that the tension of each of the 8 springs ideally needs to be adjusted to tailor the system for riders of different weights. That could be easier said than done.

Missing for me from the website is the straightforward analysis to back up the “30% less effort” claim. Power sensing cranks and a fixed route ridden at a set speed or something like that. I can quite see how the wheel may feel different when you ride it, and as if it is pushing you forward in some circumstances, but I’d like to see the working out of how they measured the claimed power difference. Maybe it is there and I can’t find it.

[[XAP]Bob]

A reasonably intelligent relation of mine asked why they don't put dynohubs on electric bikes so you could charge the battery as you ride along.

It amuses me that E bikes have dynamo lighting. (but that may be to do with vehicle lighting regulations)

Why - you really want those lights to carry on when you run out of assistance...

[Cowsham]

These loop wheels look better and simpler if you want suspension.

https://youtu.be/P5JPB_kKAg8

[GrandadGear]

Realise I'm a bit late replying to this but here goes! A few commenters have put this in the perpetual motion bucket (should that be bin?). But the idea of perpetual motion is that once you start the machine it runs forever without putting in any further energy. However, with this device the rider is continually supplying energy to the system. What is suggested (I think) is that the system is storing some of the energy provided by the rider and then returning it, thereby improving efficiency. More of a flywheel effect. As others have suggested I'd like to see some proper testing.

[Brucey]

...Missing for me from the website is the straightforward analysis to back up the “30% less effort” claim. Power sensing cranks and a fixed route ridden at a set speed or something like that. I can quite see how the wheel may feel different when you ride it, and as if it is pushing you forward in some circumstances, but I’d like to see the working out of how they measured the claimed power difference. Maybe it is there and I can’t find it.

Another way of looking at it is that if the claims were true, there would have to be at least 30% losses in a standard bike + rider that disappear once the gadget is used. There are only three places where such losses might occur;

1) in a standard transmission
2) in the way that a standard bike handles the bumps in the road
3) in the way that the human machine converts perceived effort to watts of pedal force

There are no claims for 3) ; no mention of any difference in pedalling, except that it is 'less effort'. Re 1) standard transmissions are measurably 90-95% efficient, so there is no scope for a large change in efficiency there. Which just leaves 2). If anything I'd expect a load of extra pivots in the rear wheel and a non-concentric rotation to absorb energy rather than dish it out somehow.

If there really was an effect of any kind (leave alone that magnitude) it ought to be easy to observe and measure.

cheers

[Cowsham]

Found this when Googling for duomatic brake hub mentioned on the brakes thread recently to find out what it was but this might be more in keeping with this thread

https://hubstripping.wordpress.com/tag/nuvinci/

[Jdsk]

Flywheels are very interesting.

But I doubt that they have much to offer on HPVs for the same reasons as regenerative electric braking doesn't on eBikes. But I expect that question to be explored repeatedly as more of us experience regenerative electric braking on car-like vehicles.

Jonathan

[Cowsham]

Flywheels are very interesting.

But I doubt that they have much to offer on HPVs for the same reasons as regenerative electric braking doesn't on eBikes. But I expect that question to be explored repeatedly as more of us experience regenerative electric braking on car-like vehicles.

Jonathan

Actually I saw loads of experimental regenerative braking bike builds on YouTube .

[Chris Jeggo]

I have just received the Spring 'Arrivee' magazine from Audax UK and read a short piece about this device.

Yes, it sounds very like a perpetual motion machine.

Another way of looking at it is that if the claims were true, there would have to be at least 30% losses in a standard bike + rider that disappear once the gadget is used. There are only three places where such losses might occur;

1) in a standard transmission
2) in the way that a standard bike handles the bumps in the road
3) in the way that the human machine converts perceived effort to watts of pedal force

There are no claims for 3) ; no mention of any difference in pedalling, except that it is 'less effort'. Re 1) standard transmissions are measurably 90-95% efficient, so there is no scope for a large change in efficiency there. Which just leaves 2). If anything I'd expect a load of extra pivots in the rear wheel and a non-concentric rotation to absorb energy rather than dish it out somehow.

If there really was an effect of any kind (leave alone that magnitude) it ought to be easy to observe and measure.

cheers

Totally agree.

1) The only part of a standard transmission that this device alters is between driven sprocket and wheel rim, which I reckon is so close to 100% efficient that it is not worth the effort of trying to measure or calculate it.

2) This device may deliver the benefits of suspension over bumpy roads, but no more than a well designed dedicated suspension system.

3) It is possible that temporary energy storage in springs might produce ergonomic advantages similar to those (unproven) of non-circular chainrings. I road tested the prototype Deal Drive automatic transmission for bicycles for the CTC in 1983. Its complicated expanding/contracting 'chainwheel' contained springs which sometimes produced disconcerting effects when pedalling.

Let's spend no more time in a blind alley.

[ClappedOut]

Looking at this it looks like a simple torque booster idea and a really bad one at that.
Surely the weight, losses in system a correct gear and lighter weight bike far move effective.

There appears to be an over unity idea and even if it was charged by a slower downhill pace, there wouldn’t be a useable “charge” in it from what I see.

[Percy]

No matter what you devise, you can't put a pound of energy in and get two pounds of energy out. But some cyclists will buy them because they sound good.

[KTHSullivan]

Appears that the "inventor" is peddling (no pun) snake oil. Energy would be required to compress a spring under load. Said spring would expand (recover) when said load is released. Subsequently, energy in would equal energy out that is ignoring the hysteresis loses in the spring caused by internal friction. The original article mentions a net average gain of 7.55Nm (5.5 ft lbs) for an applied load of 10kg (98.1N).Considering only half of the active coils would be utilised during the compression phase all of which would be subject to vectored loading between unity and zero. The design then as far as I can ascertain then compounds the vectoring losses by applying the "recovered" energy via another vector at the internal lobes.

Considering the number of springs (8), running the numbers, admittedly approximately it is found that the spring "index number" is approaching 25. A spring with an index number greater than 25 cannot be manufactured.

Caveat: obviously without the exact dimensions of the components a detailed analysis is not possible, but looking at the proposal I see lots of supersonic pigs.

Kept me amused for a couple of hours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLDgQg6bq7o

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
Brucey was one to suggest that a flexible frame where the bottom bracket swings left and right when you apply force to the pedals, repaid power when the frame sprung back.
It might well be partly true or it might be frame acts as a type of shock Absorber giving more comfortable ride, both I suspect could be true.
More comfortable because if you are uncomfortable than your power will drop off.
I believe there is more to be said in body ergonomics on a bicycle and simply getting fitter than any laboursaving device or the race to get the lightest possible bike.

Pre-stretching muscles before activation (not doing stretch exercises before any exercise) through correct ergonomics on a bicycle improves performance, adopting a laid-back approach Simply has an adverse affect.

[531colin]

Is to-day's date relevant?

[scottg]

Is to-day's date relevant?

From today's press packet, "Superwheel will be produced by Bayliss-Wiley and sold as standard on the Elswick Hopper Vampire Convincible."