Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
SA_SA_SA
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby SA_SA_SA » 5 Jan 2021, 11:13am

But if an eu supplier is supplying to the uk and paying uk vat surely they dont have to pay their own countries vat too?
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thirdcrank
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby thirdcrank » 5 Jan 2021, 11:26am

I presume the problem is not the money but the faff. If an exporter can price nett of VAT, leaving it to the importer (retail customer or otherwise) to deal with local imposts, that = easy. If the exporter has to collect those imposts, it's going to be more complicated, especially if there is no standardisation of purchase eg a range of bikes, parts and accessories will be harder than one standard item.

SA_SA_SA
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby SA_SA_SA » 5 Jan 2021, 11:45am

Which is why I can't see why the Uk s natural choice wouldn't be for the scheme to be optional.
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andrew_s
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Re: importing bike parts after Brexit

Postby andrew_s » 5 Jan 2021, 11:53am

amediasatex wrote:Never mind importing them, right now you can’t even order a Brooks Saddle if you’re in the UK

https://www.brooksengland.com/en_uk/uk-shipping-notice

I’m sure it’ll all be sorted at some point but just goes to show how it’ll take a while to work out the kinks if the new arrangements

It's the Brooks web shop that's based in Italy, and won't send to the UK.
Supplies to regular shops are direct from the factory, and unaffected, so you can still order via St John St, Wiggle, or wherever, and that won't stop.

Presumably the Brooks web shop got merged into the Selle Royal webshop at some stage post takeover, and is now just a skin.

thelawnet
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby thelawnet » 5 Jan 2021, 12:10pm

Jdsk wrote:
SA_SA_SA wrote:Surely some posters should wait until they have more complete information before making some of the political comments...?

This thread is about new barriers following the UK's political decisions. It's really helpful for sharing knowledge about the new processes and how to work with them. But I don't see any problem in discussing and understanding those political decisions where they'e relevant to those barriers and processes.


These are in fact EU rules that the UK has chosen to implement before the EU. :roll:

The process goes back years, see the 2007 EU VAT package

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... RES_07_281

and finally in Directive 2019/1995

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 32019L1995

which sets out the same limit as is has been implemented here (150 euros - £135)

The rules were due to be implemented in the EU on 1 January 2021 as well but this was delayed due to Covid-19 till 1 July 2021.

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/s ... 020_en.pdf

Very plainly the UK would not be making this kind of measure unilaterally but is doing so only because of the EU directive.

In fact the EU rules require 'Dutch Bikes' or whoever to implement dozens of different VAT rates for each customer destination - for example, VAT on bicycles was cut in Belgium to 6%, and you could order your bike online from there from, say, Sweden (tax rate 25%) and save hundreds of euros in tax. This will no longer be possible, and 'Dutch Bikes' will either have to implemented 30 different sets of tax (for each EU member country, the UK, and non-EU), or shutdown its European retail entirely.

What is true is that while sellers will have to implement 30 sets of tax rules, they will have to make a second payment to the UK, whereas within the EU they can choose to register with individual countries or pay centrally.

Note that Switzerland also makes foreign companies liable for Swiss VAT, but only if they do 100,000 CHF of business to Switzerland, so this is not exactly unique.

Brucey
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby Brucey » 5 Jan 2021, 12:32pm

thelawnet wrote: These are in fact EU rules that the UK has chosen to implement before the EU. :roll:


so much for Brexit, eh?...

needless to say, as usual, the legislators treat the small businessman as if each and every one has an inexhaustible resource of time and energy to deal with ever-increasing amounts of red tape.... :roll: :roll:

cheers
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reohn2
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jan 2021, 12:47pm

Brucey wrote:
thelawnet wrote: These are in fact EU rules that the UK has chosen to implement before the EU. :roll:


so much for Brexit, eh?...

needless to say, as usual, the legislators treat the small businessman as if each and every one has an inexhaustible resource of time and energy to deal with ever-increasing amounts of red tape.... :roll: :roll:

cheers

And ironically the UK brexit government was promising a bonfire of legislation :?
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Enigmadick
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby Enigmadick » 5 Jan 2021, 12:57pm

Suddenly everyone's become an expert in freight forwarding, and cross border trading which makes a change.

When the UK joined the single market in the 1980s I worked in a team in DHL responsible for getting our processes and products aligned to frictionless trade.
It didn't half simplify life and we got rid of loads of customs clerks at our international gateways.

Well it's all coming back - and if you are looking for job security, consider retraining for freight forwarding.
ENIGMA DICK aka Richard Barrett
https://www.cicerone.co.uk/authors/richard-barrett
Use the code RB20C to get 20% off any Cicerone guidebook when you buy direct

thelawnet
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby thelawnet » 5 Jan 2021, 1:15pm

Brucey wrote:
thelawnet wrote: These are in fact EU rules that the UK has chosen to implement before the EU. :roll:


so much for Brexit, eh?...

needless to say, as usual, the legislators treat the small businessman as if each and every one has an inexhaustible resource of time and energy to deal with ever-increasing amounts of red tape.... :roll: :roll:


Apparently

* An EU seller wants to sell to a different EU state - he can sell up to 10,000 (ten thousand) euros to a different member state before he has to account for destination VAT
* A non-EU seller wants to sell into the EU - he has a zero threshold and must account for VAT from his first sale.

Switzerland were persuaded by the EU to make Swiss sales subject to VAT from the first sale (whereas previously you had a separate Swiss threshold) from 1 January 2018

https://www.taxand.com/our-thinking/new ... swiss-vat/

There is a bit here about the 150 euro/£135 limit:

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/n ... gnments_en

I imagine they did an analysis of the number of packages of each value and decided that that was a sensible limit to cover most international mail order and reduce the burden of customs inspections, etc.

The problem is every country has their own priorities, so for example if I order from the EU to Indonesia then I don't buy VAT (around 20%, say), but I do pay 18.25%, which is payable locally, which is fairly burdensome for Indonesian customs to inspect. Indonesia has a flat rate up to $1500, which is fair enough, EXCEPT it doesn't apply to books (free) and clothes/shoes/textiles (more expensive, for protectionist purposes).

I don't really understand the relevant international politics but the burdensome aspect to me seems to be the VAT registration in the individual countries (in Indonesia the taxes are 10.75% sales tax and 7.5% import duty, but it's the same thing really). It might make more sense to have some sort of WTO reporting of these sales to an individual taxpayer (consumer) in diferent countries, with the consumer then responsible for payment of that tax to their country of residence.

SA_SA_SA
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby SA_SA_SA » 5 Jan 2021, 1:20pm

thelawnet wrote: These are in fact EU rules that the UK has chosen to implement before the EU.

That sounds like it has simply been 'inherited' by the current government who haven't (yet?) modified it?...


I therefore suggest waiting and seeing (and contacting mp etc,) ....
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amediasatex
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Re: importing bike parts after Brexit

Postby amediasatex » 5 Jan 2021, 1:45pm

andrew_s wrote:
amediasatex wrote:Never mind importing them, right now you can’t even order a Brooks Saddle if you’re in the UK

https://www.brooksengland.com/en_uk/uk-shipping-notice

I’m sure it’ll all be sorted at some point but just goes to show how it’ll take a while to work out the kinks if the new arrangements

It's the Brooks web shop that's based in Italy, and won't send to the UK.
Supplies to regular shops are direct from the factory, and unaffected, so you can still order via St John St, Wiggle, or wherever, and that won't stop.

Presumably the Brooks web shop got merged into the Selle Royal webshop at some stage post takeover, and is now just a skin.


Well yes, I was just pointing out that the product itself is made in the UK, yet can’t be ordered directly from their website if you’re in the UK, due to their EU based distribution setup. It made/makes perfect sense when we were in, and they won’t be the only company that made use of the ease of cross-EU rules, but once administrative barriers get in the way due to leaving things need to be re-evaluated.

As I said I’m sure it’ll all get sorted out but it IS a good example of the issues that will crop up, some expected, some unexpected, that will need sorting out.

Psamathe
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby Psamathe » 5 Jan 2021, 1:45pm

reohn2 wrote:
Brucey wrote:
thelawnet wrote: These are in fact EU rules that the UK has chosen to implement before the EU. :roll:


so much for Brexit, eh?...

needless to say, as usual, the legislators treat the small businessman as if each and every one has an inexhaustible resource of time and energy to deal with ever-increasing amounts of red tape.... :roll: :roll:

cheers

And ironically the UK brexit government was promising a bonfire of legislation :?

Like the GB <-> NI paperwork that apparently could be thrown in the bin (according to our PM).

So carriers just need to find a delivery method via Ireland -> Northern Ireland -> GB.

Ian

thelawnet
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby thelawnet » 5 Jan 2021, 1:53pm

SA_SA_SA wrote:
thelawnet wrote: These are in fact EU rules that the UK has chosen to implement before the EU.

That sounds like it has simply been 'inherited' by the current government who haven't (yet?) modified it?...


I therefore suggest waiting and seeing (and contacting mp etc,) ....


I'm not sure about that.

As mentioned before the Swiss were persuaded to modify their rules to be like the EU's.

In practice there doesn't seem to be any reason why we would scrap these rules, it is true that there is an extra vAT registration and payment step when compared to the EU, which as 25 sets of rules but potentially one payment and registration, but we can't very well use EU VAT payment systems....

Jdsk
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby Jdsk » 5 Jan 2021, 2:11pm

Enigmadick wrote:Suddenly everyone's become an expert in freight forwarding, and cross border trading which makes a change.

When the UK joined the single market in the 1980s I worked in a team in DHL responsible for getting our processes and products aligned to frictionless trade.
It didn't half simplify life and we got rid of loads of customs clerks at our international gateways.

Well it's all coming back - and if you are looking for job security, consider retraining for freight forwarding.

Lots of opportunities on the public sector side as well: current estimate is 50,000 more jobs required in the UK to deliver the additional bureaucracy:
https://www.bifa.org/news/articles/2020/may/uk-falling-short-of-post-brexit-target-for-customs-agents-warns-industry

You can understand why a Minister described Leaving as a major stimulus to the customs sector.

Jonathan

SA_SA_SA
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby SA_SA_SA » 5 Jan 2021, 5:43pm

thelawnet wrote:
SA_SA_SA wrote:
thelawnet wrote: These are in fact EU rules that the UK has chosen to implement before the EU.

That sounds like it has simply been 'inherited' by the current government who haven't (yet?) modified it?...


I therefore suggest waiting and seeing (and contacting mp etc,) ....


I'm not sure about that.

As mentioned before the Swiss were persuaded to modify their rules to be like the EU's.

In practice there doesn't seem to be any reason why we would scrap these rules, it is true that there is an extra vAT registration and payment step when compared to the EU, which as 25 sets of rules but potentially one payment and registration, but we can't very well use EU VAT payment systems....


I was suggesting that the uk from eu rules were optional so that smaller eu located retailers etc could optionally post to uk customers in same way as they would to any other '3rd' country . The op sender pays option might allow other bigger operations to increase/keep more of their uk customers by doing that work for said customers.
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