Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
Psamathe
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby Psamathe » 8 Jan 2021, 11:41am

Does seem a "both ways" issue is emerging (thanks to our Government's failures to come up with a sensible solution
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-exports-dpd-marks-spencer-b1784376.html wrote:Parcel courier suspends deliveries to EU due to Brexit red tape
Parcel courier firm DPD has suspended road deliveries from the UK to the EU - including the Republic of Ireland - because of the increased burden of paperwork caused by Brexit.

DPD said that some 20 per cent of parcels destined for Europe are having to be returned because the new customs forms required by Boris Johnson’s EU trade deal.

The announcement came as Scottish seafood producers said they had been hit by a “perfect storm” of administrative burdens following the transition out of the EU on 31 December, with queues and rejected paperwork causing “utter confusion”.

Ian

thelawnet
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby thelawnet » 8 Jan 2021, 1:25pm

rualexander wrote:
thelawnet wrote:
This is not true though. There is no such fee. Anyone claiming that the government charges a fee for VAT registration is a scammer.

...


So this from the Dutch Bike Bits is incorrect?
Ok it doesn't explicitly say the fee is to register for VAT, but it says they will be charged by HMRC to collect the applicable taxes.

".....by the British government deciding to impose a unique taxation regime which will require every company in the world in every country in the world outside the UK which exports to the UK to apply and collect British taxes on behalf of the British government. For providing this service they intend to charge a fee to every company in the world in every country in the world which exports to the UK. Clearly this is ludicrous for one country, but imagine if every country in the world had the same idea. If every country decided to behave in the same way then we would have to pay 195 fees every year, keep up with the changes in taxation law for 195 different countries, keep accounts on behalf of 195 different countries and submit payments to 195 tax offices in 195 different countries, and jump through whatever hoops were required to prove that we were doing all of this honestly and without any error."


So I did some research (which is far more than can be said for Mr. Dutch Bike Bits).

I did not recognize the name 'Dutch Bike Bits', which does not belong as one might assume to a Dutch businessman, but an Englishman in Holland.
This is David Hembrow, who moved there and specializes in telling us how much better it is than the UK, which he does on his blog: http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/

Given the context it is not particularly surprising he is not a fan of Brexit. I found on his Twitter, among many tweets moaning about Brexit, this:

https://twitter.com/DavidHembrow/status ... 6646226944

"It appears to be the case that the UK will require me to register for and pay UK tax (+1000 pound fee) to continue to send products to the UK next year.
That makes no sense at all."

This was a reply to this Tweet

https://twitter.com/WilliamShatner/stat ... 9198141441

by Captain Kirk) who made the rather specific claim

"UK folks; looks like your government is wanting to force vendors outside of your country to collect VAT on orders being shipped to the UK staring 1 Jan. I had my staff investigate costs & it’s over £1000/yr just to file these forms via a service. "

This claim is not impossible - I'm sure there is some firm who would charge a rich and famous actor £1000 to file VAT on a few sales. That doesn't seem surprising at all.

I have filed plenty of VAT returns myself, and it definitely doesn't cost a penny, but if you asked an accountancy firm to do it they would certainly charge you something. Small, medium and large firms will tend to use accountancy software, which is regularly updated for all kinds of legislative changes, and the process of filing a VAT return (which is in any case not complicated) is very much simplified by these programs.

It is difficult to understand how Mr. Hembrow turned 'William Shatner's Canadian (or wherever) accountancy firm asked £1k to file a UK VAT return' into 'the UK government is charging a fee'. One must be very busy sending out tens of thousands of tweets and not have time to actually read anything properly for this distortion of reality to have occurred.

Apparently he is very upset that having misinterpreted his accountant's advice, sorry I mean misread some twatter from Star Trek, put up false claims on his website, which were then repeated by the BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721, and then received angry messages from Brexit supporters, as per various of his Tweets:

https://twitter.com/DavidHembrow

I imagine he doesn't need the money and gets a deal of satisfaction out of saying 'sorry I can't sell to you because of Brexit', but I think it would be highly inappropriate to interpret Mr. Hembrow's false claims, as generally applicable.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, these measures were introduced by the EU and in July he will have to track and charge VAT separately to 27 states, or just shut up shop entirely and refuse to sell anything outside Holland.

L+1
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby L+1 » 8 Jan 2021, 1:59pm

So, setting aside the bizarre involvement of William Shatner and the fact the Mr Dutch Bike Bits seems to have seriously misunderstood/misrepresented the changed VAT regulations - what is your opinion on why so many other EU companies seem to have suspended delivery to the UK as we start 2021?
Is it just that anything new is too much to think about along with COVID 19? Do you predict delivery will be reinstated - perhaps in July when the regulations become operational across Europe?
Thank you for the detailed explanations....

rualexander
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby rualexander » 8 Jan 2021, 3:39pm

Thanks for the detailed research thelawnet, very interesting.

So, presumably if there is no charge involved in the registration process, it will eventually be a fairly straightforward procedure for these companies to comply with all the requirements and start supplying their products again.
Presumably there will be some software produced that will do all the complicated work for them, and life can go back to 'normal'.
Hopefully.

thelawnet
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby thelawnet » 8 Jan 2021, 4:03pm

L+1 wrote:So, setting aside the bizarre involvement of William Shatner and the fact the Mr Dutch Bike Bits seems to have seriously misunderstood/misrepresented the changed VAT regulations - what is your opinion on why so many other EU companies seem to have suspended delivery to the UK as we start 2021?


I think it was reasonable for companies not to spend time and money modifying their systems in, say, August, since the exact nature of the UK's relationship with the EU was not clear at that time. The deal was signed a week ago I think? As such, suspension isn't particularly surprising now.

I looked at Mr. Hembrow's tweets and he was very upset because he sent out a parcel in December but it didn't arrive till January when it needed a customs declaration, so was returned to him.

Vendors in general seem to be quite happy to stick a customs label on an envelope saying 'contents bike light value $10', and I don't particularly see that that aspect is going to cause too much difficulty going forward.

I had a look at Mr. Shatner's store, but unfortunately it's closed for Christmas/New Year. However it has a label 'powered by Shopify'.

This is an e-commerce platform for small businesses.

They have a helpful page there

https://help.shopify.com/en/manual/taxes/uk/uk-brexit
https://help.shopify.com/en/manual/taxe ... ax-migrate

and it seems to me that in general people using such platforms will find that it is a burden but not an unreasonable task, while very large sites with their own software will have so many sales that the extra admin of the UK VAT return doesn't really impact too much

Also many small sellers will sell on sites such as Etsy, Ebay, Amazon, etc. which will handle the taxation with no involvement from the seller at all.

I imagine the picture will look different soon, and maybe again in July as the similar EU regulations kick in.

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RickH
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby RickH » 8 Jan 2021, 6:02pm

Reading around a bit, one problem seems to be for small scale suppliers who use one of the services, such as Shopify, that give you a ready made online store & payment. It seems that they don't do the 3rd country tax stuff unless you are on a package that costs a 4 figure sum. That may be where the costing a lot references have come from, at least in part.

The choices if you use one of those services for your goods are pay a lot, the hassle of moving your store or just don't send your goods to where you need to sort the VAT!

thelawnet
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby thelawnet » 8 Jan 2021, 7:28pm

RickH wrote:Reading around a bit, one problem seems to be for small scale suppliers who use one of the services, such as Shopify, that give you a ready made online store & payment. It seems that they don't do the 3rd country tax stuff unless you are on a package that costs a 4 figure sum. That may be where the costing a lot references have come from, at least in part.

The choices if you use one of those services for your goods are pay a lot, the hassle of moving your store or just don't send your goods to where you need to sort the VAT!


Or just set a minimum order value.

broadway
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby broadway » 8 Jan 2021, 8:17pm

thelawnet wrote:
RickH wrote:Reading around a bit, one problem seems to be for small scale suppliers who use one of the services, such as Shopify, that give you a ready made online store & payment. It seems that they don't do the 3rd country tax stuff unless you are on a package that costs a 4 figure sum. That may be where the costing a lot references have come from, at least in part.

The choices if you use one of those services for your goods are pay a lot, the hassle of moving your store or just don't send your goods to where you need to sort the VAT!


Or just set a minimum order value.


Of £135 which means you pay the delivery charge + handling fee to the delivery company - oh how people will love that.

SA_SA_SA
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby SA_SA_SA » 9 Jan 2021, 10:08pm

thelawnet wrote:...

Excellent investigation :D ....a pity the bbc didn't do some.
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st599_uk
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby st599_uk » 9 Jan 2021, 10:17pm

SA_SA_SA wrote:
thelawnet wrote:...

Excellent investigation :D ....a pity the bbc didn't do some.
You mean like this one from January 2018:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-42595875

Or this one from earlier this month on exactly this issue:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-55530721

And that's just a minute googling.
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SA_SA_SA
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby SA_SA_SA » 9 Jan 2021, 10:20pm

st599_uk wrote:
SA_SA_SA wrote:
thelawnet wrote:...

Excellent investigation :D ....a pity the bbc didn't do some.
You mean like this one from January 2018:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-42595875

Or this one from earlier this month on exactly this issue:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-55530721

And that's just a minute googling.

Err I was referring to the bbc news item of jan 2021 , referred to upthread, that merely reported Mr Hembrows rant and investigated no further.
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thelawnet
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby thelawnet » 10 Jan 2021, 12:56pm

st599_uk wrote:
SA_SA_SA wrote:
thelawnet wrote:...

Excellent investigation :D ....a pity the bbc didn't do some.
You mean like this one from January 2018:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-42595875


That's referring to VAT-registered businesses importing goods from the EU to be sold on. It's nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

Or this one from earlier this month on exactly this issue:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-55530721

And that's just a minute googling.


That's the one with the false claims from Mr. Hembrow.

It's an incredibly poor piece of journalism in that it repeats false claims and also mentions 'Beer on Web' yet fails to discuss the very obvious excise implications of importing alcohol, which are different to VAT issues, and different again from tobacco, even when we were in the EU (excise duty was already payable from other members of the EU).

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TrevA
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby TrevA » 14 Jan 2021, 10:27am

Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but I just noticed on the Spa Cycles website:

PLEASE NOTE: We have stopped shipping to Europe as of 21/12/2020. The EU import duties mean that it is no longer economic.
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Jdsk
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby Jdsk » 14 Jan 2021, 11:00am

I don't think that it has:
https://spacycles.co.uk

Screenshot 2021-01-14 at 10.59.35.png

Is "import duties" the correct term?

Jonathan

st599_uk
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Re: Post-Brexit - buying bike parts abroad . . (incl. Rose/DutchBikeParts)

Postby st599_uk » 14 Jan 2021, 11:15am

Jdsk wrote:I don't think that it has:
https://spacycles.co.uk

Screenshot 2021-01-14 at 10.59.35.png

Is "import duties" the correct term?

Jonathan
It depends. There's no import duty for UK products, but does a Spa bike have enough UK components to count as a UK product.
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