Why does nobody want paper maps anymore?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Why does nobody want paper maps anymore?

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 11 Dec 2020, 11:02am

Hi,
About s third of them, The rest are Explorer one in 25,000.
I bought most of the pink ones when we one in 25,000 were not available in large sheets.
One particular Map I have at least four or five, one laminated into small easy to carry sheets, otherwise i'de run around trying to find just the one Map, And it gets a bit worn too.
Others have said it's a bit difficult to get global views on a small device With clarity.
One and 50,000 is more suitable probably for cycling as opposed to walking.
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Mike Sales
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Re: Why does nobody want paper maps anymore?

Postby Mike Sales » 11 Dec 2020, 11:12am

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Paper maps are not a lot of good if you don't know how to use a compass.
One and 50,000 is no good for walking in general because there's not enough detail.
Unlike cycling you tend to look at the map more often when you are walking and you tend to notice the detail more on the map.
Now if it was one in 25,000 you have a lot of takers.
Unless you can find your way home in the dark and the mist and you go off road, you definitely need a paper map and compass.
A soggy map is better than a damp flat mobile phone.


You would find navigation difficult in the Black Cuillin of Skye then, where the rock is unpredictably magnetic. I found it possible to correct mistakes there even in thick mist, using information from the SMC map. The OS representation style breaks down in such complicated, craggy ground. The Scottish Mountaineering Club, drawn from photographic triangulation, is stripped down to mainly contours, with paths, lochans, burns and the coast.
I seldom use a compass anyway because I orientate the map according to what I see.
I enjoy the 25,000 scale but find the 50,000 adequate. I somehow managed to find my way from Boulogne to Chamonix using a single Michelin sheet which depicted the whole of France.
Navigation is a process which can be carried out using as many different inputs as are available, from the stars to signposts or wave direction on a trackless ocean. The skill is to use whatever you have to the best purpose.
I love the OS maps for the huge amounts of extra information they carry.
One of my favourite maps is of the Isle of Man. It is a 6 inch map shrunk photographically to 21/2 inch. The density of detail seems to reflect the way all maps miniaturise the world.
Another favourite is a WWI map of the trenches in part of the Somme. Since it is a British map it shows only the German trenches.
Last edited by Mike Sales on 11 Dec 2020, 11:30am, edited 1 time in total.

sjs
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Re: Why does nobody want paper maps anymore?

Postby sjs » 11 Dec 2020, 11:19am

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:One and 50,000 is more suitable probably for cycling as opposed to walking.


I've always thought there isn't quite enough detail for the scale in the 1:50k maps. The content is more suited to the 1 inch scale (1:63360), from which the first series were translated. And the 1 inch maps used only 62% of the paper for the same area.

Jdsk
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Re: Why does nobody want paper maps anymore?

Postby Jdsk » 11 Dec 2020, 11:22am

Mike Sales wrote:Navigation is a process which can be carried out using as many different inputs as are available, from the stars to signposts or wave direction on a trackless ocean. The skill is to use whatever you have to the best purpose.

Exactly.

Try different methods and tools, build up skills, then choose for each occasion and purpose..

Jonathan

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Why does nobody want paper maps anymore?

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 11 Dec 2020, 11:45am

Hi,
Jdsk wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:Navigation is a process which can be carried out using as many different inputs as are available, from the stars to signposts or wave direction on a trackless ocean. The skill is to use whatever you have to the best purpose.

Exactly.

Try different methods and tools, build up skills, then choose for each occasion and purpose..

Jonathan

Yep, just try walking over a hill or along the side of it and see if you can walk in a straight line.
most difficult if you can't actually see where you are walking to.
I once walked 46 miles In 16.5 hours with camping gear solo.
One day I walked just 21 miles in 10 1/2 hours It got light later and got dark much much sooner not helped by the thick-mist, Totally devoid of all detail on the ground, just black peat.
Constant use of the compass every 30 seconds or so, what else can you do in those sort of conditions.

Edited, that was the days before satnav.
Yes you rely a lot on the contours and the detail of the map to find out if you're in the right place, More difficult if you can't see very far either.
With Walkin you can just use the time to determine how far are you gone, when I did orienteering my mate told me to count paces that you run, Bit more difficult if you're scrabbling across rocks and around cliff edges of course.
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Psamathe
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Re: Why does nobody want paper maps anymore?

Postby Psamathe » 11 Dec 2020, 12:03pm

Unless I've missed something, one thing that disappoints me about OS is how they keep their data very close to themselves. IGN in France seems very happy to work with and exchange data with OSM - working on a collaborative basis but UK OS seems very "mine, mine, mine".

I think the US copyright/license rules covering Government works a good model - Government bodies are paid for by taxpayers so their works should not be subject to additional fees (we've already paid for it with out taxes). Of course printed maps would still be charged for (as that costs) but the data - taxpayers paid for it to b collected. In the US e.g. NASA's beautiful amazing images of the sky can be used license free.

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Re: Why does nobody want paper maps anymore?

Postby Mike Sales » 11 Dec 2020, 12:05pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Yep, just try walking over a hill or along the side of it and see if you can walk in a straight line.
most difficult if you can't actually see where you are walking to.
I once walked 46 miles In 16.5 hours with camping gear solo.
One day I walked just 21 miles in 10 1/2 hours It got light later and got dark much much sooner not helped by the thick-mist, Totally devoid of all detail on the ground, just black peat.
Constant use of the compass every 30 seconds or so, what else can you do in those sort of conditions.

Edited, that was the days before satnav.
Yes you rely a lot on the contours and the detail of the map to find out if you're in the right place, More difficult if you can't see very far either.
With Walkin you can just use the time to determine how far are you gone, when I did orienteering my mate told me to count paces that you run, Bit more difficult if you're scrabbling across rocks and around cliff edges of course.


I doubt you would find yourself in the Cuillin in mist, but your techniques will not work there.
It is difficult to count paces on such broken, rocky terrain, and one follows the easiest route up the rock, not a straight line. And, as I said, the compass is untrustworthy. Nevertheless it is quite possible to navigate there in thick conditions, as my little story showed. It just requires a bit of mountain nous.

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Re: Why does nobody want paper maps anymore?

Postby sjs » 11 Dec 2020, 12:41pm

Psamathe wrote:Unless I've missed something, one thing that disappoints me about OS is how they keep their data very close to themselves. IGN in France seems very happy to work with and exchange data with OSM - working on a collaborative basis but UK OS seems very "mine, mine, mine".

I think the US copyright/license rules covering Government works a good model - Government bodies are paid for by taxpayers so their works should not be subject to additional fees (we've already paid for it with out taxes). Of course printed maps would still be charged for (as that costs) but the data - taxpayers paid for it to b collected. In the US e.g. NASA's beautiful amazing images of the sky can be used license free.

Ian


I agree (and seem to remember that others on here strongly dislike the OS for similar reasons). It is possible to get a free (money-wise) licence from Bing to download OS map data, IIRC. Only for limited use though.

Campag
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Re: Why does nobody want paper maps anymore?

Postby Campag » 11 Dec 2020, 12:50pm

That's a result of deliberate Government policy, the privatisation of many services and functions to generate income or because the ideology of 'private sector good / public sector bad' has been embedded in most governments over the last few decades.

rmurphy195
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Re: Why does nobody want paper maps anymore?

Postby rmurphy195 » 11 Dec 2020, 1:08pm

Pneumant wrote:I think OS mapping is amongst the worlds best, especially the OS Paper maps. I have a couple of hundred and several copies of the ones in heavy usage. I also like the physical size of paper maps which, for me, definitely aid route planning decisions both on foot and awheel. Looking at the map after a bike ride checking where paths / roads intersect and confirming interesting landscape features such as ancient sunken lanes, earthworks and castles, is a guilty pleasure :D Apparently each map has an intentional error for copyright reasons, could be the shape of a wood or an additional road etc.


Totally agree, when we are planning a walk its these oddities that I look for to provide interest (I didn't realise that there is a moated farmhose in existence not 20mins from home until I studied the OS map and!). My 1:50000 tailored map was one I had produced recently specifically for cycling to save carrying 3 maps for when I pedalled over the edge, so to speak. I'm (as you can tell!) a great fan of OS - and after all, OS incur the costs of regular surveying (even with modern technology this can be quite high), this all has to be paid for somehow.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Why does nobody want paper maps anymore?

Postby Tangled Metal » 11 Dec 2020, 1:54pm

You don't need a compass but it's an additional input. Most people don't realise the value of the various inputs they're getting which is why people need a lifetime of learning in navigation, of which compass skills are only a part.

As to following a line goes without a compass I would turn it around on you and your compass. Not many people can accurately follow a bearing in rough terrain, even relatively flat moors. A degree out and you could easily be off a cliff!!! A degree out is probably good accuracy for most people trained in use of compass.

I used to know two guys who are both mountain leader qualified, one with winter ml too. The other was trained up in many outdoor activities including various canoeing disciplines up to examiner level 2 IIRC one off the top possible level. Despite their training and many years experience they walked off the mountain through a cornice!!! They had started a good way off the cliff on the broad top ridgeline, it sounded like a scarp type hill. They followed a bearing which should never have taken them within 100m of the edge if not further away than that. What happened? Wind! They didn't factor in the effect of strong winds on their following a bearing skills. Being in the clay they couldn't see what was happening. They survived but only just. One stopped his fall upside down on the steep slope/crag!!! They basically believed in what the compass was telling them too much without looking at other inputs which were giving warning signs things were wrong.

I've been in whiteouts where following compass was not enough to keep safe. Strong winds and no visibility beyond a few metres isn't great for following bearings.

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Re: Why does nobody want paper maps anymore?

Postby chris_suffolk » 11 Dec 2020, 4:50pm

pete75 wrote:
chris_suffolk wrote:The OP's original message asked why nobody wanted old maps, and that he had failed to sell any despite advertising on e-bay and elsewhere. That said, I PM'ed asking which ones were for sale as I could be interested. Nothing!!!! So, do you really want rid?


I want rid of all not piecemeal and was prepared to give them away not sell. They're all in a big box and it will take sometime for me to go through and list them all. Do you really expect instant answers to anything you may ask?


No I wasn't expecting an instant answer. But your original message never said that you wanted rid off them all in one go, it just said you were looking to get rid of them, there's a difference. Having read my PM, a quick reply to say you didn't have them listed etc would have been helpful, rather than just ignoring the request. I'll look elsewhere.

landsurfer
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Re: Why does nobody want paper maps anymore?

Postby landsurfer » 11 Dec 2020, 4:59pm

I'll have anyone's cast off OS Maps .. I love reading maps ... I see them in 3d and spend hours pouring over them .... ... But lets remember why there called Ordnance Survey ... they are for use by Ordnance .... Artillery .... that why they are so detailed...
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Re: Why does nobody want paper maps anymore?

Postby Herts Audax » 11 Dec 2020, 6:00pm

If the map is of an upland area, say Kinder Scout, then an older map will be just as good for navigation as when it was published. Digital may give the impression digital is more up to date but that really depends on when the OS last surveyed. They are rarely , if ever, up to date with Forest Enterprise logging,

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horizon
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Re: Why does nobody want paper maps anymore?

Postby horizon » 11 Dec 2020, 7:04pm

NickWi wrote:I have a few 'Historic' Maps of my local and not so local area and one of my err, pleasures is to go our for ride just using the old map. Okay, sometimes I've had to push along the odd green lane or byway, but it's suprisingly good fun what you either come across that isn't marked on new maps or what you think should be there but has long since disapeared. Or maybe I'm just wierd.


+1 But I do tend to avoid the very old maps as you might find yourself on a pre-tarmac road. As I said above, I think the best are the 50,000 from the 1970/80s as not only do you see the changes happening on the map but you can directly compare them with a new 50,000 which harder with a one-inch.
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