Parts from the UK

[Jdsk]

Once lost, business can be very difficult to get back.

This is so important.

It's much harder to attract new customers than maintain existing customers. Even if there are any *"teething problems" they can cause long-lasting damage.

And then there's the economic depression from the outbreak. That's going to make things harder for any supplier who is still in business. I'm expecting increased protectionist sentiment. And increased hassle because of barriers to trade will only make it harder for those trying to export through them.

Jonathan

* But I think that the term is often used as a form of denial of what's happening.

[Mike Sales]

Very admirable, but given the "where can I get it cheapest?" nature of many, I suspect that will also apply to distribution method.

The point of a carbon tax is that it increases the price of goods as the distance they are freighted by means which use fossil fuels increases.

https://www.carbontax.org/whats-a-carbon-tax/

[PH]

Which does less damage in general: freight by rail or freight by sea?
Jonathan

Don't underestimate air freight, a large percentage if not the majority of small packages from Europe will have flown in. East Midlands Airport alone handles 6,000 tons a week (Combined in and out). One of the reasons supply chains are so messed up at the moment is that around half of air freight normally travels on passenger flights. Whatever anyone's opinion on Brexit, the stupidity of not delaying it till the pandemic was under control defies logic. It would have made sense even for those who support it.
Regardless of Brexit, I think a lot of people haven't grasped the nature on modern day logistics. When you buy something - say from a well known online UK cycle retailer - not only do they not actually have it in their location, it's often not even in the same country, yet they can still supply you on a next day basis and it arrives in their branded packaging. The item cost for that is minimal, often comparable with road freight, transit times are short and the processes largely automated, so much so that freight transfers between EMA and Heathrow by air.
As I think I said in a different thread, if you're concerned about transport, then not regarding quick delivery as good service would be a place to start.

[Jdsk]

I was trying to discuss pwa's interesting question about minimising damage to the planet. I don't think that air freight has any part to play in that...

Jonathan

[Bmblbzzz]

It's to do with rules of origin.

Just for accuracy - As someone else pointed out earlier, this doesn't apply to packages under £135.

Not sure about that. AFAIK the £135 limit determines who collects VAT. Import duties, rules of origin, and associated documentation (including safety and hygiene inspections) I think apply at all values.

[Stevek76]

It's to do with rules of origin.

Just for accuracy - As someone else pointed out earlier, this doesn't apply to packages under £135.

That's the present rules for importing into the UK, so more relevant for the other thread. Not sure what the rule is from UK to EU, and as far as I'm aware there will be some differences between member states.

I think the UK's limit is a recent change too, possibly happened with the VAT changes and that it used to be lower, hence the tendency for aliexpress sellers to lie on packaging about something being a gift <£39.

How would we distribute goods from the Far East (eg Shimano parts) if we were primarily concerned with minimising carbon / methane emissions? And surely that should now be our top priority. Having them travel first to the UK and then onward to non-UK destinations doesn't, on the face of it, look optimal.

It may be rather more complicated than that depending on how the freight is bundled up to get to distribution centres as well as the carbon costs of the full chain (warehousing etc), not just the transport. Given things that produce carbon generally cost money, therefore if JD's previous structure was the cheapest to them it may well have been lowest carbon and they'll have increased somewhat. That kind of market forces though would be the easiest way to get behaviour to be more efficient, slap a much larger charge on carbon and it'll sort itself out to a large extent.

All that said, I'd question the assumption that people were buying across borders to save some money all that much. It certainly happened from time to time if a vendor was doing a particularly good deal (the kind of end of line/season 30%+ off), but given the steeper postage costs (rose charged nearly £10) I think it was more the case of niche products that the local distributor was choosing not to stock (madison doesn't stock the whole shimano range after all)

[Bmblbzzz]

How would we distribute goods from the Far East (eg Shimano parts) if we were primarily concerned with minimising carbon / methane emissions? And surely that should now be our top priority. Having them travel first to the UK and then onward to non-UK destinations doesn't, on the face of it, look optimal.

Two hierarchies (both only approximate, especially the second). One is: Reduce, Reuse, Repair, Recycle. The other is: sea, inland waterway, rail, road, air.

So the first thing is to question whether we/you/one really needs these goods. At minimum, how will we we/you/one benefit? If we do need this item, can we reuse an old one or repair a broken item?

If we really do need a new one, try to source it as locally as possible, although that must also be subsidiary to concerns such as wages, conditions of employment, how resources and waster are handled in that business, and so on. Bear in mind that "the environment" is only one part of sustainability.

If we decide we really do need a new one and it really has to come from (in this example) the Far East, then we can start to address the question of transport by turning to the second hierarchy. But it's not (necessarily) as simple as "send it by sea!" Where exactly are the end markets? How large are they? Are they concentrated in one location or more evenly distributed?

It might be that if they are relatively evenly distributed throughout Eurasia, the best way is to send them by rail, dropping off one container load (or however it might be shipped) in various locations. Rail might also be the least damaging if we only have a small end market, or even if the end market is concentrated in one inland site.

But for cycle parts there's probably a relatively distributed market throughout Europe. Load up a container and put it on a ship, send it to Rotterdam, then distribute from there. Or is it better to send one container to each of Rotterdam, Lisbon, Felixstowe, etc? It's actually going to take a lot of precise calculation and depend on possibly unknown variables, like the last leg of distribution.

Ed: As Stevek has pointed out, warehousing also has carbon costs. Especially for temperature or climate sensitive goods.

[al_yrpal]

The majority of what JD Sports sells is imported from Asia so its odd that they were formerly importing it here and sending it to the EU.

No, they weren't. They were formerly importing it here and sending it within the EU.

Jonathan

Whats the difference Its obvious, but obviously not to some folk. Protectionist bloc....

Al

[PH]

It's to do with rules of origin.

Just for accuracy - As someone else pointed out earlier, this doesn't apply to packages under £135.

Not sure about that

I wouldn't have written it If I wasn't sure about it, if you have any doubt, Google.
I'm not blaming you, it's an indication of the general lack of information, caused by the lack of time between finalising the arrangements and the implementation.

[PH]

The majority of what JD Sports sells is imported from Asia so its odd that they were formerly importing it here and sending it to the EU.

No, they weren't. They were formerly importing it here and sending it within the EU.

Jonathan

Whats the difference Its obvious, but obviously not to some folk. Protectionist bloc....

Al

The difference is a doubling of the Duty, making many transactions unfeasible.
Why are you asking? It's almost like you don't understand what you've supported.
Of course trading bloc's are protectionist and exclusive, that's their purpose. It's like the gang at school, you don't have to like it to realise it's better not being the one getting your head flushed down the toilet.

[Jdsk]

The majority of what JD Sports sells is imported from Asia so its odd that they were formerly importing it here and sending it to the EU.

No, they weren't. They were formerly importing it here and sending it within the EU.

Whats the difference. Its obvious, but obviously not to some folk. Protectionist bloc....

I think that the change is obvious to everyone posting here. The difference between within and to is precisely what's causing problems. The barriers to trade don't exist when you're within.

Jonathan

[Bmblbzzz]

The majority of what JD Sports sells is imported from Asia so its odd that they were formerly importing it here and sending it to the EU.

No, they weren't. They were formerly importing it here and sending it within the EU.

Jonathan

Whats the difference Its obvious, but obviously not to some folk. Protectionist bloc....

Al

There are three differences:
1. We are no longer trading within the protectionist bloc.
2. We no longer have the protection of the bloc when trading with the rest of the world.
3. We no longer have any influence on how the protectionist bloc develops.

The last is the most significant IMO.

[Jdsk]

There are three differences:
1. We are no longer trading within the protectionist bloc.
2. We no longer have the protection of the bloc when trading with the rest of the world.
3. We no longer have any influence on how the protectionist bloc develops.

The last is the most significant IMO.

Interesting... and that one gets worse over time.

Jonathan

[PH]

It's to do with rules of origin.

Just for accuracy - As someone else pointed out earlier, this doesn't apply to packages under £135.

That's the present rules for importing into the UK, so more relevant for the other thread. Not sure what the rule is from UK to EU, and as far as I'm aware there will be some differences between member states.

Without wishing to appear too rude, you show, in this post and others, so little understanding of this subject that you really would benefit from a little more reading and a little less typing. Could I politely ask that before questioning again you have the courtesy to do a little fact checking to confirm what you think you know is correct. But really, why did you think any deal would allow a duty exception in one direction? Or that in dealing with the EU there would be some customs differences between states?
Here's a starter for you, but there's a whole world of google out there (Other search engines exist)
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/n ... gnments_en

[Jdsk]

But really, why did you think any deal would allow a duty exception in one direction? Or that in dealing with the EU there would be some customs differences between states?

I don't think that the important question for this thread is what people expected or should have expected. It's what's happening now, and what's going to happen in the future.

Jonathan