if a Moulton would...
Re: if a Moulton would...
Thats a nice bike! Proper tourer
Not an expert on ergonomics but your wrists do look a bit uncomfortable - they are bent in a way that they wont be when riding on the hoods.
Not an expert on ergonomics but your wrists do look a bit uncomfortable - they are bent in a way that they wont be when riding on the hoods.
- simonineaston
- Posts: 8078
- Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
- Location: ...at a cricket ground
Re: if a Moulton would...
Not really the subject of this discussion, but it so happens that I have two bicycles available at the mo', both based on identical TSR framesets, one built up as my ideal (or near...) touring bike and the other, as my ideal fast, day-bike (or with me on it, languid, day-bike...). The former weighs 25kg, the latter 18kg.Any more comparisons, anyone?
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Re: if a Moulton would...
That's interesting. I didn't realise Moultons were that heavy, though.
Re: if a Moulton would...
My Moulton APB with 11 speed hub gear, dynamo lighting and racks is about 15kg. My similarly specced TSR is about a kg lighter. I suspect Simon's 25kger must be made from uranium
Re: if a Moulton would...
As I said, my TSR90 is 14.2Kg.
90 gears.
Triple 10sp and 3spSA.
90 gears.
Triple 10sp and 3spSA.
Mick F. Cornwall
-
- Posts: 2920
- Joined: 9 Jun 2008, 8:06pm
Re: if a Moulton would...
I got mine down to about 21lb as a fixie but have just reconfigured it with a Sturmey-Archer AM hub, which meant putting the rear brake back on. Then I did the mudguards too. Probably 26lb again.
It's as light as a normal bike, if that normal bike is a tourer!
It's as light as a normal bike, if that normal bike is a tourer!
Re: if a Moulton would...
I had an issue with the bike as it was originally, in that there wasn't enough gear range for me. First, I swapped the 11-25 cassette for an 11-28 which helped a bit at the bottom end.
Next, I swapped the 58t outer ring for a 61t ........... and sold the 58t to help pay for the 61t.
That helped the top end a bit.
Still not happy, so I fitted a SA3sp that would take a 10sp cassette. That over did it, but it's fun and interesting.
Top gear in 3rd is very high, and fine on the long downhills, and bottom in 1st is excellent on the very steep lanes.
Since then, I became tired of fitting new 11t cogs as they wear so fast, so fitted a 12-30 ............ making the bottom gear even lower and the top gear less high.
I'm happy with this setup now, and doubt I will swap anything in the future.
Mick F. Cornwall
Re: if a Moulton would...
Pretty much this. If you look at a steel diamond frame of similar general use it's about that heavy. Mine has racks, mudguards, dynamo hub & lights, 8 speed hub gear and weighs about what a "nice" steel bike of similar setup would be.rogerzilla wrote: ↑15 Apr 2021, 9:45pm I got mine down to about 21lb as a fixie but have just reconfigured it with a Sturmey-Archer AM hub, which meant putting the rear brake back on. Then I did the mudguards too. Probably 26lb again.
It's as light as a normal bike, if that normal bike is a tourer!
I prefer the Moulton as I find the handling more to my taste (what some people feel is "twitchy" I characterise as "responsive") and I find the ride more comfortable (whether it would solve the original wrists issue of this thread I don't know), but it isn't the sort of night-and-day difference people expect before trying one, more a general je ne sais quoi that invites being ridden.
Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
- speedsixdave
- Posts: 868
- Joined: 19 Apr 2007, 1:48pm
- Location: Ashbourne, UK
Re: if a Moulton would...
Just weighed my Jubilee in winter trim, which is with the large rear rack and mudguards, dynamo hub and lights, and the Sturmey X-RDC hub brake / cassette, drop bars and STIs, Conti Contact Speed tyres etc and it's 12.5kg. No front rack on it today.
In 'fast summer day' trim with no lights or mudguards, small rear rack, dual-pivot rear brake and Schwalbe Pro Ones it's about 10kg, although you will have to take my word for that as I have not weighed it for a couple of years. Call it 10.5 with a margin of error. That's a lot more than a carbon weekend warrior but I think not too bad for a full-suspension steel bike.
I've never done any pseudo-scientific tests comparing Moultons and classic bikes, mostly out of laziness and lack of rigour. However I generally think that (1) roll-down tests, though scientifically valid, do not really measure much which is relevant to the real-world cyclist; (2) Moultons are very sensitive to riding style, perhaps more so than many other bikes, and particularly when climbing. I am thrilled that MickF continues to enjoy riding his Moulton despite his own clear evidence that his riding style does not really suit the bike, and this does get to the heart of the matter, which is that pleasure in the ride of a bike (and its ownership) is not necessarily directly proportional to its lightness and 'efficiency'. We're not all riding 7kg carbon bikes, and we're not all riding fully-faired recumbents.
Moulton advocates are rahter like advocates of Jobst Brandt and his ideas of 'planing' - there's absolutely no scientific evidence of such a thing, but a very real minority of experienced cyclists believe that there's something in it. As John has posted above, there is lots of evidence of non-rubbish performances on Moultons suggesting that they are not a serious inhibition to one's cycling ambitions, and for every cyclist who has tried a Moulton seriously and decided they don't like it you will find one who has tried a Moulton seriously and thoroughly enjoys using it. They are by no means perfect for any or all use cases, but not a bad effort at a bike that is capable of lots of things.
On the subject of the original post, my penn'orth is that a Moulton might well be gentler on one's hands and wrists but by a massive distance the key factors in hand and wrist comfort are weight on the hands, angle of the wrists and material of the grips. As wiser folk than me have noted upthread.
In 'fast summer day' trim with no lights or mudguards, small rear rack, dual-pivot rear brake and Schwalbe Pro Ones it's about 10kg, although you will have to take my word for that as I have not weighed it for a couple of years. Call it 10.5 with a margin of error. That's a lot more than a carbon weekend warrior but I think not too bad for a full-suspension steel bike.
I've never done any pseudo-scientific tests comparing Moultons and classic bikes, mostly out of laziness and lack of rigour. However I generally think that (1) roll-down tests, though scientifically valid, do not really measure much which is relevant to the real-world cyclist; (2) Moultons are very sensitive to riding style, perhaps more so than many other bikes, and particularly when climbing. I am thrilled that MickF continues to enjoy riding his Moulton despite his own clear evidence that his riding style does not really suit the bike, and this does get to the heart of the matter, which is that pleasure in the ride of a bike (and its ownership) is not necessarily directly proportional to its lightness and 'efficiency'. We're not all riding 7kg carbon bikes, and we're not all riding fully-faired recumbents.
Moulton advocates are rahter like advocates of Jobst Brandt and his ideas of 'planing' - there's absolutely no scientific evidence of such a thing, but a very real minority of experienced cyclists believe that there's something in it. As John has posted above, there is lots of evidence of non-rubbish performances on Moultons suggesting that they are not a serious inhibition to one's cycling ambitions, and for every cyclist who has tried a Moulton seriously and decided they don't like it you will find one who has tried a Moulton seriously and thoroughly enjoys using it. They are by no means perfect for any or all use cases, but not a bad effort at a bike that is capable of lots of things.
On the subject of the original post, my penn'orth is that a Moulton might well be gentler on one's hands and wrists but by a massive distance the key factors in hand and wrist comfort are weight on the hands, angle of the wrists and material of the grips. As wiser folk than me have noted upthread.
Big wheels good, small wheels better.
Two saddles best!
Two saddles best!
Re: if a Moulton would...
A few words in my defence.
My riding style is generally for higher gears but that doesn't stop me wanting lower gears. Hence my gearing choices for the Moulton.
The main issue I notice, is not efficiency of pedalling technique, but the lack of "go" that the bike has.
Heavy bikes - all else being equal - go faster downhill but more work going up them.
Trouble with my TSR, is that it's slower going down the hills in the first place.
It's very very noticeable riding on the self same roads as I do, Mercian vs Moulton. It's not the "bobbing" of the suspension when I pedal, just the inefficiency of design. Aerodynamics of the frame coming down hills ........ besides the extra weight going up them ......... but the weight going down doesn't help and assist like it should.
Very very noticeable indeed, and when I ride round here, I'm doing on average 100ft of ascent per mile ridden. Often 120ft per mile.
My riding style is generally for higher gears but that doesn't stop me wanting lower gears. Hence my gearing choices for the Moulton.
The main issue I notice, is not efficiency of pedalling technique, but the lack of "go" that the bike has.
Heavy bikes - all else being equal - go faster downhill but more work going up them.
Trouble with my TSR, is that it's slower going down the hills in the first place.
It's very very noticeable riding on the self same roads as I do, Mercian vs Moulton. It's not the "bobbing" of the suspension when I pedal, just the inefficiency of design. Aerodynamics of the frame coming down hills ........ besides the extra weight going up them ......... but the weight going down doesn't help and assist like it should.
Very very noticeable indeed, and when I ride round here, I'm doing on average 100ft of ascent per mile ridden. Often 120ft per mile.
Mick F. Cornwall
Re: if a Moulton would...
I used my Ergon 4 grips for the first time this week - three short (10 milers) hilly rides. They were utterly brilliant. The Giant you link to are much cheaper (£20 I think) compared to £55 for the Ergons but the Ergons I think have better grip design. They aren't cheap but they are brilliant: it's both the bar end and the flat palm platform that work. It's being able to turn your wrists 90 deg and vary your hand positions that provides relief, along with your wrist being supported and aligning with your arm when on the bars. I am not saying they are the panacea for the OP but they must surely be worth a try (the Ergons or the Giant).Chris56 wrote: ↑15 Apr 2021, 9:52am
Would narrow flat bar with bar ends help?
https://www.rutlandcycling.com/componen ... ps__372606
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
Re: if a Moulton would...
Hi Mick, not looking to be at all contentious or doubt your experience but with regard to aerodynamics I always thought that after the rider the biggest contributor to aerodynamic drag was the wheels, specifically the turbulence they create, and that one of the advantages of small wheels was reduced aerodynamic drag. I appreciate that my experience of riding a Moulton for the last 32 years, alongside other bikes, is on a 17" Jubilee which has smaller wheels that your TSR and is a fair bit lighter.
With regard to going down hill I have reached speeds of over 50mph loaded with camping gear and the handling is rock steady. I have also reached those speeds on a modern road bike and it's a very different experience. The Moulton is so much more controlled and if the road surface is poor will descend much faster. On my commute which I do on the Moulton (when not on the tandem) I use a downhill section of cycleway which I also use from time to time on my "club bikes" and I can descend it much faster on the Moulton without getting bounced all over the place because of the poor road surface. But even on good surfaces I've never ridden another bike that feels as surefooted at speed as the Jubilee.
Out of interest what tyres are you using on your TSR and your Mercian?
Ian
Re: if a Moulton would...
With reasonable assumptions on typical unfaired uprights I think that's correct, with a much bigger contribution from the front wheel than the rear.
There are lots of studies of how drag is affected by wheel and tyre width... does anyone know any for diameter, please?
Thanks
Jonathan