Tiger Crossing Picture

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
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mjr
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Re: Tiger Crossing Picture

Post by mjr »

wjhall wrote: 16 Apr 2021, 2:21pm At the other crossings it is not clear what the single dashed lines mean. Given that the Marsh Street cycle crossing is light controlled they are probably not give way lines.
I don't think that follows completely: even if the light is green, you still must give way to users already on the crossing... but I suppose you don't have to give way to users not already on it, which you would with double-dashes. Maybe that's why they're single?

Interesting: does that mean that our local done-on-the-cheap (to avoid the cost of splitting walking and cycling on the approach, with the wider tarmac and tactile paving that requires) cycleway crossings like this are actually slightly better than zebra/parallel crossings in theory (if not in practice) because drivers must give way to cycles crossing at speed?
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thirdcrank
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Re: Tiger Crossing Picture

Post by thirdcrank »

mjr wrote: 16 Apr 2021, 12:08pm
thirdcrank wrote: 16 Apr 2021, 12:01pm IMO, the situation for pedestrians at pedestrian crossings goes to the heart of what's wrong with our whole set-up. Zebra crossings are really a game of bluff, arguably made worse in recent years by the absence of much in the way of enforcement. I could imagine parallel crossings being more a form of Russian Roulette. Our legislators seem unable to produce a form of words which even tries to ensure the safety of pedestrians on pedestrian crossings.
Generally I agree, but I blame lack of enforcement more than regulations wording. The regulations already outlaw the worst offences. With image recognition and cheaper cameras, we could have zebra/parallel crossing cameras monitoring the worst ones, but no government dares introduce them, I think for fear of "war on motorists" headlines.
This type of thing is why I think the traffic authority should have the power - better still the duty - to enforce everything to do with traffic management. It's absurd that one part of government should have the job of laying it all out and others should have the job of enforcing it, especially when they don't do it. If there's money in it, local authorities won't shirk from robust enforcement.
wjhall
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Re: Tiger Crossing Picture

Post by wjhall »

Interesting: does that mean that our local done-on-the-cheap (to avoid the cost of splitting walking and cycling on the approach, with the wider tarmac and tactile paving that requires) cycleway crossings like this are actually slightly better than zebra/parallel crossings in theory (if not in practice) because drivers must give way to cycles crossing at speed?
Heaven knows, I suggest casting runes, probably simpler than trying to divine the intentions of highway authorities.

In fact the Baldwin Street cycle lane is separated except at the parallel crossing, which is probably why it qualifies for midget beaconless zebras across it.
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Re: Tiger Crossing Picture

Post by wjhall »

The lines at parallel crossings are probably stop lines rather than give way lines despite being described as give way lines, defining areas such as described, for example on p436 of TSGRD2016:

".....22.—(1) The give-way line marking provided for at item 54 of the Part 2 sign table (and shown in the diagram at item 53) conveys to vehicular traffic proceeding along the carriageway towards a Parallel crossing—
(a) the position at or before which a vehicle must be stopped (“the stop position”), and
(b) a requirement to stop at, or before, the stop position,
if a pedestrian or cyclist is on the carriageway, for the purposes of using the crossing, within the part of the crossing intended for (as the case may be) pedestrians or cyclists.


(my italics)

This is not the same as the sections quoted by thirdcrank for ordinary double give way lines. I assume without checking, or casting runes, that the give way markings mjr showed are covered by the ordinary double give way line rules. The give way lines are quite clearly accompanied by the inverted triangle give way sign for the cycle route. What is lacking is the single give way line that normally runs across the other half of the carriageway. Its absence tends to make the cycle route look less like a road with priority.
Last edited by wjhall on 17 Apr 2021, 11:10am, edited 2 times in total.
wjhall
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Re: Tiger Crossing Picture

Post by wjhall »

There is another possiblity for parallel crossings, which I have not found discussed in TSRGD2016. This is that a cyclist proceeding along the carriageway could make a right turn into the parallel crossing, using it to cross traffic coming in the opposite direction, apparently with priority over oncoming traffic. This might explain Bristol's dithering over the no right turn or right turn with cycle exception choice.

It seems to be an action that is difficult to write regulations for, and also one that extends the legal right to throw yourself in front of oncoming traffic beyond what drivers have so far been trained to expect. Possibly pondering this explains the delay to including parallel crossings in the Highway Code.
Last edited by wjhall on 17 Apr 2021, 12:06pm, edited 1 time in total.
thirdcrank
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Re: Tiger Crossing Picture

Post by thirdcrank »

The lines at parallel crossings are probably stop lines ...
Or more precisely "stop if necessary" lines rather like the STOP line at traffic lights and certainly different from STOP lines at junctions which mean "always stop, then comply with the give way rules."

IMO the fundamental problem here is trying to use the convoluted lingo of our criminal law to to convey a broad principle (ethos?). We end up with a mish-mash. I really do believe that in those places where conditions for cyclists are said to be so much better, they have an entirely different regime for enforcing this type of thing.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Tiger Crossing Picture

Post by Bmblbzzz »

I'd see the dashed lines running parallel to a tiger crossing as primarily marking the edge of the crossing, rather than being give way lines.
SA_SA_SA
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Re: Tiger Crossing Picture

Post by SA_SA_SA »

Surely it needs to be clear to both cyclists and drivers how the cycle part of the combined tiger descended parallel zebra/ cycle crossing works

Either
1 ) it is like a zebra and cyclists approaching to cross the all purpose carriageway must slow and check for traffic or wait for traffic to stop, just like pedestrians at a striped pedestrian zebra . Imo the visual design (no zebra stripes on cycle part) might lead cyclists to mistakenly think option 2 applies....
So surely a give way sign facing potential crossing using cyclists is required to avoid confusion if this option is correct?


Or
2 ) vehicles on the main all purpose carriageway must always slow or stop in case a cyclist is approaching at normal speed with no need to slow as they always have priority just like a main road across side streets which end at give ways. In which case a stop or giveway sign is surely needed for the all purpose carriage way users to avoid confusion.
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Tiger Crossing Picture

Post by Bmblbzzz »

It functions as in your 1) but that doesn't mean a give way sign is needed. After all, there isn't one at a standard zebra or any other type of crossing. The difference between stripes and dashes is merely to divide the crossing into two separate areas (IMO perhaps unnecessarily).
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gaz
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Re: Tiger Crossing Picture

Post by gaz »

mjr wrote: 16 Apr 2021, 2:36pmInteresting: does that mean that our local done-on-the-cheap (to avoid the cost of splitting walking and cycling on the approach, with the wider tarmac and tactile paving that requires) cycleway crossings like this are actually slightly better than zebra/parallel crossings in theory (if not in practice) because drivers must give way to cycles crossing at speed?
Image
Better is often a complicated judgement. Cycles would have greater priority (as you describe), on the other hand pedestrians are not afforded priority by standard 'give way' markings.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/200 ... on/25/made
Road marking shown in diagram 1003: give way
(6) Where the transverse lines are placed in advance of a length of the carriageway of the road where a cycle track crosses the road along a route parallel to the transverse lines, then the requirement shall be that no vehicle shall proceed past such one of those lines as is nearer the cycle track, in a manner or at a time likely to endanger any cyclist proceeding along the cycle track or to cause such a cyclist to change speed or course in order to avoid an accident.
Standard 'give way' markings are all about vehicular priority.
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SA_SA_SA
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Re: Tiger Crossing Picture

Post by SA_SA_SA »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 25 Apr 2021, 11:19am It functions as in your 1) but that doesn't mean a give way sign is needed. After all, there isn't one at a standard zebra or any other type of crossing. The difference between stripes and dashes is merely to divide the crossing into two separate areas (IMO perhaps unnecessarily).
But the cyclist isnt cycling over the stripes so may not view it as a zebra....
Having stripes on both sides of the cycle part might make it look more like a zebra to all, ie a zebra with a parted red sea down the middle for cyclists, so they arent cycling over paint * who would then not mistake it for a priority crossing...

*apparently slippy when wet...
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Tiger Crossing Picture

Post by Bmblbzzz »

I remain confident we can all see that we're crossing the carriageway.
SA_SA_SA
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Re: Tiger Crossing Picture

Post by SA_SA_SA »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 25 Apr 2021, 7:36pm I remain confident we can all see that we're crossing the carriageway.
But not with priority, ie you must stop or slow to give way to oncoming traffic that hasnt stopped,; I dont think that is clear in the current design especially to cyclists from countries where if a cycle path continues across a road within marked lines they have priority and thus will expect to continue across unhindered...
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wjhall
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Re: Tiger Crossing Picture

Post by wjhall »

wrote: [
But not with priority, ie you must stop or slow to give way to oncoming traffic that hasnt stopped,;
If we are talking about zebras-tigers that is not what the law says. If you can get onto the crossing first the traffic must stop for you. This may prove fatal to you, but the law grants you priority over anything that has not got onto the crossing before you do. This is why drivers are trained to look out for people approaching the crossing, and generally do so.
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RickH
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Re: Tiger Crossing Picture

Post by RickH »

There is one of these crossings in Bolton on a cycle route using a former railway line where there used to be a road bridge over the line but it has been removed & the cutting infilled necessitating a crossing. I've only been that way once since it was installed so can't really comment on its efficacy.

What I can comment on is a couple of plain zebras that I now cycle across.

For several years (2020 excepted) I have regularly used the canal towpath up past the Wigan locks (22 of them) as an alternative to a busy road on the way home from the station. There are 2 road bridges where the towpath doesn't continue under the bridge necessitating crossing the road. At these crossings there is a zebra. The first few times I crossed I intended to dismount & be a genuine pedestrian but as soon as I appeared on the pavement the traffic stopped for me so I simply rode across. I always pause before crossing to make sure vehicle are stopping but have given up on any attempt to dismount.
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