Optimum Cycling Position

[mattheus]

My point was that the human body can adapt itself to the most unlikely difficulties, so that the odd 5 mil. of crank length is of little matter.

Isn't that one of the problems of bike fitting though? The body can adapt to the situation, so the optimal position for comfort/power transfer is hard to detect by feel. If it feels wrong, then you're a long way off. If it feels right, you're in a position that the body can tolerate, but not the best necessarily. And just because the body can tolerate it for 30 mins, doesn't mean it will for a 300k ride.

I agree.
It can also mean that when you are put into the "right"/optimum position, you can't help but fight the change! It feels all wrong for the first few miles/hours, but can pay-off in the long run.
(look at the awful sitting postures some use - they are clearly creating problems, but they're so used to the position that it "feels comfortable" to them. For a couple of years, anyway .... )

[Mike Sales]

I am not suggesting that gross fitting errors can be ignored because the body can adapt to anything.
I do suggest that the spurious accuracies involved in the elaborate foremulae of the bike fitting industry are unnecessary.
I used the old rule of thumb methods, but bodged to accomodate my short and constrained movement leg, and when I built up fitness managed to ride 1,100 miles in eleven days, with a small camping load.
I have been riding my bikes comfortably for decades since then.
If the bike fitters could promise I could ride a hundred miles with no little aches I might be convinced, but on that tour I folded my tent every morning and jumped on the bike without any reluctance.
How do you decide saddle height by these methods when your legs are over an inch different in length?

[mattheus]

How do you decide saddle height by these methods when your legs are over an inch different in length?

You go to a fitter who is accustomed to dealing with these sorts of problems. Many people have assymetries - sometimes it's not skeletal, it's something like muscle weakness which takes a little longer to assess. Or flexibility problems on one side.

[Mike Sales]

How do you decide saddle height by these methods when your legs are over an inch different in length?

You go to a fitter who is accustomed to dealing with these sorts of problems. Many people have assymetries - sometimes it's not skeletal, it's something like muscle weakness which takes a little longer to assess. Or flexibility problems on one side.

I have not felt the need in many happy miles, which have only improved my joint. I have even managed the occasional rock and even ice climb.
My problem is not one of those you suggest. It is unlikely to be eliminated by changing my position.

[st599_uk]

I am not suggesting that gross fitting errors can be ignored because the body can adapt to anything.
I do suggest that the spurious accuracies involved in the elaborate foremulae of the bike fitting industry are unnecessary.
I used the old rule of thumb methods, but bodged to accomodate my short and constrained movement leg, and when I built up fitness managed to ride 1,100 miles in eleven days, with a small camping load.
I have been riding my bikes comfortably for decades since then.
If the bike fitters could promise I could ride a hundred miles with no little aches I might be convinced, but on that tour I folded my tent every morning and jumped on the bike without any reluctance.
How do you decide saddle height by these methods when your legs are over an inch different in length?

I don't think a bike fitter does it via formulae. Certainly the ones I've seen have used a video capture from 4 angles and a set of pressure pads on the saddle and handlebars to ensure weight is spread evenly, the knees are extending correctly and not splaying out over etc. As for different length legs, I too have that following a rugby incident. Mine is not the difference you quote, but corrected using a spacer to have one cleat stand a bit further from the shoe.

[kylecycler]

There's a (female) randonneur - Audax rider - in the US who does mega mile rides and swears blind that everyone would benefit from having their saddle set slightly to one side or the other, depending on how asymmetrical they are. I've never seen that suggested by any fitter but when I think about it I only ever get chafing, although it's never that serious, in my right groin - in that case I guess I could try setting my saddle very slightly to the left. I've always just assumed a saddle should be set dead straight, in fact I take a long straight ruler, line it up with the centre of the saddle and make sure it aligns with the stem bolts (there are other ways of doing it). But maybe I'm not that perfect - I don't suppose anyone is!

[Mike Sales]

There's a (female) randonneur - Audax rider - in the US who does mega mile rides and swears blind that everyone would benefit from having their saddle set slightly to one side or the other, depending on how asymmetrical they are. I've never seen that suggested by any fitter but when I think about it I only ever get chafing, although it's never that serious, in my right groin - in that case I guess I could try setting my saddle very slightly to the left. I've always just assumed a saddle should be set dead straight, in fact I take a long straight ruler, line it up with the centre of the saddle and make sure it aligns with the stem bolts (there are other ways of doing it). But maybe I'm not that perfect - I don't suppose anyone is!

Or they could use a leather saddle which will take on the appropriate assymetry. Mine is quite conspicuously adapted to my deformed undercarriage.
My ignorance of the sophisticated paid service offered by the fitters is complete. Do they ever recommend setting a saddle to one side, or using a Brooks which will be moulded as needed by use?

[Mike Sales]

I don't think a bike fitter does it via formulae. Certainly the ones I've seen have used a video capture from 4 angles and a set of pressure pads on the saddle and handlebars to ensure weight is spread evenly, the knees are extending correctly and not splaying out over etc. As for different length legs, I too have that following a rugby incident. Mine is not the difference you quote, but corrected using a spacer to have one cleat stand a bit further from the shoe.

I have not needed to find out what sophisticated methods they use.
I have tried using a spacer though, on general principles, not because I found any problem needing correction.
There is a reason why my right leg moves in an arc, and it is not amenable to external correction.

Enough of my own disability. I only mention it because I have found from my own experience that the body can adapt to a surprising extent.
Also that a saddle height which cannot conform to the prescriptions of fitters works fine.

[kylecycler]

There's a (female) randonneur - Audax rider - in the US who does mega mile rides and swears blind that everyone would benefit from having their saddle set slightly to one side or the other, depending on how asymmetrical they are. I've never seen that suggested by any fitter but when I think about it I only ever get chafing, although it's never that serious, in my right groin - in that case I guess I could try setting my saddle very slightly to the left. I've always just assumed a saddle should be set dead straight, in fact I take a long straight ruler, line it up with the centre of the saddle and make sure it aligns with the stem bolts (there are other ways of doing it). But maybe I'm not that perfect - I don't suppose anyone is!

Or they could use a leather saddle which will take on the appropriate assymetry. Mine is quite conspicuously adapted to my deformed undercarriage.
My ignorance of the sophisticated paid service offered by the fitters is complete. Do they ever recommend setting a saddle to one side, or using a Brooks which will be moulded as needed by use?

Pretty sure they don't but maybe they should! I share your scepticism about fitters - wouldn't part with money for it, but that's probably just because I'm tight. Not being disrespectful of them but I figure the best fitter is yourself, if you go about it the right way and figure it all out.* I've never got round to trying a leather saddle yet so I guess I should.

*The one insidious thing about anything is, there's what feels right because you're used to it, even though it's wrong (i.e. inefficient or even harmful), and there's what feels wrong because you're not used to it, even though it's right (i.e. efficient and beneficial). Applies to lots of stuff as well as bike fit.

[Mike Sales]

*The one insidious thing about anything is, there's what feels right because you're used to it, even though it's wrong (i.e. inefficient or even harmful), and there's what feels wrong because you're not used to it, even though it's right (i.e. efficient and beneficial). Applies to lots of stuff as well as bike fit.

I think that feeling comfortable and right is in itself a contributor to efficiency.

[bjlabuk]

After some research I ordered and have just received Phil Burt's book "Bike Fit". Looking quickly through it I think it will answer most of my questions. Happy cycling !

[st599_uk]

After some research I ordered and have just received Phil Burt's book "Bike Fit". Looking quickly through it I think it will answer most of my questions. Happy cycling !

Would be good to get a review after you've read it, and how it pertains to the less competitive, more leisure cyclist.

[kylecycler]

I think that feeling comfortable and right is in itself a contributor to efficiency.

Definitely. Apart from anything else, you ride more often and further and get fitter. Or don't, as the case may be.

[mattheus]

How do you decide saddle height by these methods when your legs are over an inch different in length?

You go to a fitter who is accustomed to dealing with these sorts of problems. Many people have assymetries - sometimes it's not skeletal, it's something like muscle weakness which takes a little longer to assess. Or flexibility problems on one side.

I have not felt the need in many happy miles, which have only improved my joint. I have even managed the occasional rock and even ice climb.
My problem is not one of those you suggest. It is unlikely to be eliminated by changing my position.

To adress your 2 paras:
1) I didn't say you needed to, and I'm pleased that you are coping so well! I simply answered your question. Don't ask if you don't want a reply!

2) I didn't say those were *your* problem - I interpreted your posts as saying your skeleton was assymetrical. I was describin the clientele of these fitters - they meet a variety of problems.

[Mike Sales]

To adress your 2 paras:
1) I didn't say you needed to, and I'm pleased that you are coping so well! I simply answered your question. Don't ask if you don't want a reply!

2) I didn't say those were *your* problem - I interpreted your posts as saying your skeleton was assymetrical. I was describing the clientele of these fitters - they meet a variety of problems.

I am sorry. I did not make myself clear.
My question was rhetorical.
My point. In spite of a difficulty which cannot be resolved by saddle height, my body managed to adapt satisfactorily. So I deduce that the exact prescriptions of the fitters are not quite as crucial as they would have you believe. The old rule of thumb worked well even in my tricky case.