Optimum Cycling Position

[bjlabuk]

I still have a copy of Cycling Plus, Issue 37, February 1995, which contained a Special Report titled "The Perfect Fit" which described how to work out your optimum cycling position. I also have a copy of the book "Road Racing Techniques & Training" by Bernauld Hinault and Claude Genzling, on which the report was based. Obviously time has passed, so has the Hinault methodology been refined further or is there a new popular alternative?

[ANTONISH]

The Hinault book is interesting and informative.
The positioning is derived from research at Loughborough which was somewhat revolutionary at the time (seventies I think)
I believe it still forms the basis for positioning for road racing although there are more sophisticated techniques available enabling refining of the position.
For most non racing cyclists the positioning isn't necessarily suitable for their purposes although I think the saddle positioning generally would work well.

[[XAP]Bob]

One should recline on a comfortable seat, preferably with a neck/head rest.

[bjlabuk]

The Hinault book is interesting and informative.

Thank you. I am not a competitive cylist (too old now) but I find the Hinault methodology sufficient for my needs. I don't take the final calculation as rigid, but it gives me a starting point from which to experiment perhaps 2 or 3 cm either way. The only thing it doesn't cover to my knowledge is 'stance width' https://blog.bikefit.com/cycling-knee-pain/ . I began to suffer knee pain recently. After reading this article I went out and bought 20mm pedal spacers and then adjusted my cleats etc to match my natural standing or walking 'stance width'. It has made a great difference and has eliminated my Knee pain. So my body is now in its 'optimum' position both from a side-on point of view as well as from a head-on point of view to reduce the likelihood of musculo-skeletal injuries occuring.

[thirdcrank]

On here, I'd recommend the advice from 531colin. eg

viewtopic.php?p=643323#p643323

[PT1029]

The alternative fit(s) depend (like the type of bike you need) on the end use.
Some bike fit people are racers, some tourers, so they will give you different answers. I vaguely remember Cycle Magazine trying 3 bike fits, and they gave different results.
One person (quite fast) I know went for a bike fit, said it was a waste of money as the bars would be too high, adding he could ride with a horizontal back all day.
Another friend went for 2 bike fits. She in a "CTC type" tourer/club rider + long Audaxes. The 1st had dots on her joints and a video cameras and the like. She knew she wasn't getting the right position as the positioning was all about speed and efficiency, no mention of comfort. The 2nd asked what sort of cycling she did. Watched as she rode around the yard, followed by one or 2 minor tweeks and that was it. She was more impressed with the 2nd than the 1st.
I recall Loughborough reporting that the best pedal at bottom - saddle height was 1.09 X you inside leg measurement. I have pretty much stuck with that for 40 years. When I first started cycling, I got shoulder/neck ache, get a shorter stem club memebers said, problem solved. That pretty much has been my bike fitting. I would love to go to a fancy bike fit just to see what the answer would be.

[Jdsk]

The recent developments of interest include:

1 The demonstration that ankling might add no or little power.

2 The demonstration that crank length might not be crucial ditto.

As above: any fitting procedure should only be considered as a starting point for personal experimentation.

Jonathan

[Grumpy-Grandad]

After much deliberation I have decided that, for me, the best cycling position is ...... bum on saddle, feet on pedals, hands on handlebars .......

[bjlabuk]

You don't have to go to a fancy bike fit. You can do some basic measurements in the comfort of your own home using some online tool such as at https://docs.velogicfit.com/portal/en/k ... asurements. I went and tried out my results from Cycling Plus on a professional gym exercise bike which caters for every variation you can think of, inseam length, stack, reach etc etc. I was also able to look at the screen and see how much work each leg was doing and then correct the imbalance. Having all this information also helped me when I came to buy an off-the-shelf bike from a local store. Just throwing out options for folks. But if you just want to park your bum on the seat and go cycling that is okay too !

[rogerzilla]

Bike fits are snake oil, in my opinion. People are too different in flexibility and riding style.

[Mick F]

Yep.

Some of us are "apes" with long arms. My arm-span is five inches longer than my height.
I'm like that, but not very strong in the upper body. Never ever been able to more than two or three press-ups for instance.
My bum is happy on any saddle, and the harder ones suit me fine.
I have strong legs, and cannot "spin" for the life of me.
CJ once said, that any experienced cyclist can ride at 80rpm all day. I doubt I could get more than a mile at 80rpm.

We are all different.
You cannot dictate the correct bike fit based on your dimensions.

[rareposter]

Bike fits are snake oil, in my opinion. People are too different in flexibility and riding style.

I dunno, in the right circumstances they can be quite useful. Many people completely new to cycling have no idea of what should be where or what the "ideal" position is for that type of bike and as a result end up in all sorts of weird positions. It might be "right" in as much as they're not suffering any injury but equally, in terms of efficiency, comfort, weight distribution and handling, it'll be totally off. The problem is that new people don't really know this so they just end up "making do" or unconsciously compensating. So in that respect, a decent fit can help and it'll show how things need to change as they get fitter, stronger and so on.

But yeah, with the sheer number of bike types out there, the changes in fashion, standards and geometry over the years, and (worst of all) the massive expansion of "advice" on the internet via YouTube, forums etc, it's become a minefield. Technically it should be one bike fit per bike and even that will only give a starting point to adjust from; you could realistically re-fit yourself every year and adjust based on fitness, goals, weight/flexibility (gain or loss) and so on.

Where it becomes snake oil is not necessarily the actual bike fit but the person doing it - there are plenty of people out there who have been trained on how to use System X who then describe themselves as professional bike fitters.

[ChrisF]

[snip] The only thing it doesn't cover to my knowledge is 'stance width' https://blog.bikefit.com/cycling-knee-pain/ . I began to suffer knee pain recently. After reading this article I went out and bought 20mm pedal spacers and then adjusted my cleats etc to match my natural standing or walking 'stance width'. It has made a great difference and has eliminated my Knee pain. So my body is now in its 'optimum' position both from a side-on point of view as well as from a head-on point of view to reduce the likelihood of musculo-skeletal injuries occuring.

Thank you for the link about stance width.
I have recently been having knee pain, but it seems to come and go - some days good, some bad. The other day I realised that it appeared to be worse after riding one of my bikes, but I put this down to coincidence.
Anyway as a result of that article I just measured the distance from the center of the downtube to the center of the pedal on each side, on all 4 bikes. Three of them measure 5" each side. One bike measures just over 5.5" on one side and nearly 6" on the drive side - guess which one I was suspecting giving me the knee pain?

[Sweep]

Bike fits are snake oil, in my opinion. People are too different in flexibility and riding style.

i tend to think that's very probably right.
I also tend to think that the best way is to have several bikes, tinker with them until you feel comfortable, then take key measurements which you can use for any new bikes - for they will very likely all get tinkered with to end up the same, whatever the notional frame sizes.
Not all folks have this luxury of course.
Also should declare that I'm a flat-bar person and not a racer - folks more into "performance", "power output" and other holy grails and happy to tolerate more pain than me might find that this happy bodgery doesn't suit them.

[531colin]

I have no doubt that an experienced observer can help a rider get a better/more efficient/more comfortable position....and even a position less likely to cause injury.
Read Steve Hogg here https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bi ... n-it-be-2/ . Steve describes how a customer came to him dipping his toes and dropping his hips just to reach the pedal at the bottom, and how Steve progressively lowered the customer's saddle until both the toe-dipping and hip-dropping disappeared. The customer ended up with their saddle almost 30mm lower than the height recommended by a previous bike fit.
On the other hand, the Hinault/Genzling book produces a "magic number"....like a rabbit out of a hat, with no explanation, justification, or worked examples, the saddle height should be the inseam times 0.885.
Later they marvel at how Anquetil pedaled with his toe down throughout the stroke, but Merckx dropped his heels climbing and accelerating. If either of these techniques should alter that magic number (even at the third decimal place!) I didn't find it.

Interesting stuff about pedal extenders. I have been struggling for a few years in that my (left) heel moves out at an exaggerated angle when I get tired. Oddly, this doesn't seem to hurt the knee, but I get cramp in the calf because I'm working against the limit of the cleat float. I fitted a pedal extender just to the left pedal on a couple of bikes, and it helps, I guess by putting the leg where it wants to be without the comedy foot angle. I'm aware I tilt the bike to the left when riding, and always have done; I am now finding that if I deliberately keep the bike upright then I'm comfortable at least for a short ride without the pedal extender...I must gather the courage to try a longer ride "un-extended".