Quads get tired too quickly...?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
PhilD28
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Re: Why do my quads hurt and tire so quickly?

Post by PhilD28 »

Vorpal wrote: 30 Jun 2021, 2:54pm
PhilD28 wrote: 30 Jun 2021, 1:39pm An interesting paper and absolutely contradictory to what I was taught by national level coaches in training camps when I was a cat 2 road racer.
It also contradicts my most recent bike setup by a UK leading bike fit expert who sets up Ineos riders bikes.

I'll stick with what I've been advised by working pros
Even if I accept the theory that hamstrings are better activated by being clipped in, the needs of pros & sports cyclists are not entirely applicable to leisure and utility cyclists. I certainly wouldn't want any of my bikes set-up the way pros set theirs up.

If it made that much difference, wouldn't I suffer with problems, hauling camping gear up Norwegian hills? And how did all those cyclists succeed before cleats were invented?
Vorpal what i said was that riding without being clipped in "encouraged the use of the quads" rather than "encouraging" and supporting of the act of peddalling circles. With flat pedals it just isn't possible to activate the 6.00 to 12.00 portion of the cycle in a pulling manner (actually not a conscious pullin action, more sub conscious) by activating the calf and hamstring muscles, or even effectively using the scraping mud of the sole of the shoe technique (aka Greg LeMond), let alone when out of the saddle climbing.

There are hundreds of "expert" opinions on pedal technique and many are contradictory I could quite easily link to articles and papers the counter your argument, such as https://www.roadbikerider.com/what-make ... stroke-d3/ but all I am doing is offering advice from my own experience and through discussions with some of the people who write these papers and books, a couple who have specifically advised me on the most effective ways of engaging all the muscle groups.

That isn't to say I argue with what works for you through your experience, why would I, it would be stupid and pointless. What I am trying to do is assist the OP. One thing about racing, is that it promotes the most effective use of power delivery, and that experience translates very well to touring in my experience.
Last edited by PhilD28 on 30 Jun 2021, 5:34pm, edited 1 time in total.
PhilD28
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Re: Why do my quads hurt and tire so quickly?

Post by PhilD28 »

Slothman wrote: 30 Jun 2021, 3:09pm
nez wrote: 30 Jun 2021, 2:29pm I can't see that you've said how long you've been biking. I reckon 4-6 weeks of regular rides for your muscles to get properly dialled in if you haven't done it at all. So, I would follow all the excellent advice you've been offered here but also allow a month for bike specific toning.
You are right, I should have given that information.
I have only been riding around 3 to 4 weeks, 2 to 4 rides of between 6 &12 miles each, per week.
So yes, I am very new to this and totally get where you are coming from. I do need to allow time to get used to all this and acclimatising/toning my muscles and tweaking my riding position and technique along the way is no small part of it I reckon.

I wanted to know if this is 'normal' for a newbie and also just wanted to reality check this to see if there was something major I was doing wrong so I could correct it to give myself a fighting chance of taking to this?
I really want to make it work as my Achilles kills me again after only one 5 mile run, even after resting it for a couple of weeks.

I appreciate all the great advice so far.
This changes it all, you are probably just not bike fit. You need to ensure your position is right on the bike and slowly build up your strength and cycling endurance particularly for hill work. I am still of the opinion that cleated cycling shoes help a lot but that is down to budget and preferance.
Getting the muscles firing correctly by esuring the glutes are fully activated as well as the quads and also that your hip flexors and hamstrings aren't tight will really help.
Google exercises for cycling particularly in relation to glutes and quads, lots of good stuff on the web. Most of all ride your bike and don't expect too much too soon.
Benz3ne
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Re: Why do my quads hurt and tire so quickly?

Post by Benz3ne »

Slothman wrote: 30 Jun 2021, 3:09pm
nez wrote: 30 Jun 2021, 2:29pm I can't see that you've said how long you've been biking. I reckon 4-6 weeks of regular rides for your muscles to get properly dialled in if you haven't done it at all. So, I would follow all the excellent advice you've been offered here but also allow a month for bike specific toning.
You are right, I should have given that information.
I have only been riding around 3 to 4 weeks, 2 to 4 rides of between 6 &12 miles each, per week.
So yes, I am very new to this and totally get where you are coming from. I do need to allow time to get used to all this and acclimatising/toning my muscles and tweaking my riding position and technique along the way is no small part of it I reckon.

I wanted to know if this is 'normal' for a newbie and also just wanted to reality check this to see if there was something major I was doing wrong so I could correct it to give myself a fighting chance of taking to this?
I really want to make it work as my Achilles kills me again after only one 5 mile run, even after resting it for a couple of weeks.

I appreciate all the great advice so far.
Yup! That's it - been there very recently so the feeling of it is fresh in my mind!
You'll get used to it quickly for sure. It might even help with any hills you come across while running! :wink:
iandusud
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Re: Why do my quads hurt and tire so quickly?

Post by iandusud »

Are you trying too hard? I would recommend riding in a gear in which you can spin the pedals comfortably rather than pushing on them. The cycling fitness will come by itself and little by little you'll find yourself using bigger gears as you get fitter. I have ridden with novice riders who ride too high a gear and struggle. As soon as I get them to change down a few gear to the point where they are no longer pushing on the pedals all of a sudden they find it easier and they go faster! I had one guy who came for a ride with a group I was leading who after about five miles of really struggling said he was going to turn round and go home. I got him to do as above and before I knew it he was off the front amazed at how much easier it was. I had a similar experience with another guy who did a coast to coast ride with a few of us. He was young and very fit put he was struggling, pushing big gears. Again I advised him to find a gear he could spin and before long he was telling everyone in the group how easy it was!
Slothman
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Re: Why do my quads hurt and tire so quickly?

Post by Slothman »

All good advice, thanks!

I will re-check my seat height and tyre pressure (after buying a decent pump) and perhaps cut myself some slack for not being 'bike fit'.
I will look into cleats when I get a new bike methinks.
Stevek76
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Re: Why do my quads hurt and tire so quickly?

Post by Stevek76 »

My own entirely anecdotal impression is that quads are used more when the saddle is low, something I used to notice on my old MTB which did not have the luxury of a dropper post and thus resulted in climbs occasionally taken with a lowered saddle.

Where are your feet on the pedals? It's not unusual for new cyclists to run both a lower than optimal saddle (because it feels safer) and also to pedal with the midsoles rather than balls of the feet
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Paulatic
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Re: Why do my quads hurt and tire so quickly?

Post by Paulatic »

PhilD28 wrote: 30 Jun 2021, 1:39pm An interesting paper and absolutely contradictory to what I was taught by national level coaches in training camps when I was a cat 2 road racer.
It also contradicts my most recent bike setup by a UK leading bike fit expert who sets up Ineos riders bikes.

I'll stick with what I've been advised by working pros
Do you consider Lachlan Morton of EF Education-Nippo as a working pro?
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PhilD28
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Re: Why do my quads hurt and tire so quickly?

Post by PhilD28 »

Don't you consider riding in his flat pedals a response to his sore knee?

Somehow I doubt he thinks he is more effcient using flat pedals, if they were the pro peloton would be full of them, or maybe that's the next innovation along with disc brakes.
Ever since Cristophe (1930's?) intruduced his clips and straps, cyclists have been clipping in one way or another as a pedaling efficiency aid, and I would bet that some form of clipping in is by far the most popular way of pedaling among touring as well as racing cyclists.

BTW Did you read the link in one of my posts from a pro cycling coach? And as I said there are as many opinions relating to pedaling mechanics and efficiency as there are experts making them, even experts seem to agree on that one.

Again, I'll stick with what I have been personally told by several pro cycling physios and coaches whose results I know and trust.
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Paulatic
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Re: Why do my quads hurt and tire so quickly?

Post by Paulatic »

PhilD28 wrote: 30 Jun 2021, 7:15pm Don't you consider riding in his flat pedals a response to his sore knee?
Possibly and it’s good to know he is willing to use it.
The fact I wanted to highlight was his average speed, in touring mode, was exactly the same.
I am particularly taken with Lachlan because his reason and results are exactly the same as my experience just over three years ago.
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PhilD28
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Re: Why do my quads hurt and tire so quickly?

Post by PhilD28 »

It's very common for physios and coaches to use flat pedals as a diagnostic aid when riders complain of sore knees as it eliminates the variable that is cleat set up. If the knees are not sore using flat pedals they then set them up on a bike fitting jig and examine the pedaling mechanics with flat pedals, then replicate that with cleats to bring back the efficiency.

I have no problem anybody using any pedal system they are happy with but to try and use that as an argument for flat pedals bringing about greater pedaling efficiancy, I don't buy it.

I can see benefits in MTB riding where being able to quickly put a foot down is an advantage. But I defer back to my point, that racing is a great testing ground for improvement of power output and efficiency, clipping in took over from flat pedals in the 30's and remains so where power and efficiency are critical to this day for a reason.

It would be an interesting poll of how many people on this forum clip in compared to using flats and why.

BTW did you read my linked article by a pro cycling coach on set up, particularly cleats?
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Re: Why do my quads hurt and tire so quickly?

Post by wirral_cyclist »

When I started riding as an early retiree a few years ago I also struggled with pain, it took a good few miles to get over quad pain (150?) but that's less than a saddle pain was (300!). I hated both pains so much I did as was suggested to me (and I forced myself) to better each week by 10%, just basically to get to the threshold of painlessness (new word?) quicker, and it worked!
I now think of myself (a semi) mile muncher but early season if I've had a long break off, or even much later in the year if I go out with the fast lads my quads hate me. Build it up as fast as you can bear, but not if it hurts rather than aches. 12mph isn't bad.
Jamesh
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Re: Why do my quads hurt and tire so quickly?

Post by Jamesh »

Another tip is to change the way you climb up longer drags sit in the saddle and spin. But if there is a steeper section then climb out the saddle, this means that different leg muscles are all getting a workout without going into the red with any particular muscle group.

It does take weeks if not years to get muscle built. And don't totally forget the running as it's more energy demanding therefore better at weight control but more minor injury prone...

Cheers James
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Paulatic
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Re: Why do my quads hurt and tire so quickly?

Post by Paulatic »

PhilD28 wrote: 30 Jun 2021, 7:15pm BTW Did you read the link in one of my posts from a pro cycling coach?
I hadn’t
PhilD28 wrote: 30 Jun 2021, 8:18pm BTW did you read my linked article by a pro cycling coach on set up, particularly cleats?
OK then if you insist :P

In his own words he is interested in efficiency and power. At my age I’m not remotely interested. I might have been fleetingly interested twenty years ago. There were no Gurus that I knew about before the WWW and position was reached by club mates wisdom coupled with trial and error. I personally think you can be as efficient as you like and as powerful as you like but if it ain’t comfortable then those benefits are going to be short lived.
Can’t disagree he finds setting cleats important. It is important. Fine words but doesn’t tell us how.
Saddle tilt… tick
Cockpit…tick
Then we got to KoPS and doesn’t tell us if at this point he throws all his initial set ups out of the window and now everything has to conform to a plumb line from the knee. Or maybe he just wants his own little bit of mystique and controversy. :D

To the OP I wouldn’t be worrying about any efficiency just now. I’d put a bit of tape around the seat post, as a set point, and try raising the saddle to see if it helps. If I’d been off the bike a long time through winter I found myself doing just this and a few weeks later I’d find my saddle was too high and put it back to where it was.
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PhilD28
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Re: Why do my quads hurt and tire so quickly?

Post by PhilD28 »

I find that the older I get the more I’m interested in efficiency from myself and my bike, comfort and efficiency are critical in allowing me to still get the miles in as I get older. I really don’t want to make it any harder, which “for me” flat pedals do, I tried when I had a knee injury.

You’re dead right, it’s a crappy article and doesn’t bear close scrutiny, it does make some valid points though and I chose it over any of the other 1000’s out there purely to illustrate that opinions by people claiming to be experts varies wildly on this stuff. In this case he’s a pro cycling coach talking about efficiency and power and starts with ……..cleats, not flat pedals because with cleats they claim you get to actively engage the hamstrings and calf muscles between the 6,00 and 12.00 position which aids smooth circle pedalling, which supports what coaches and physios have told me.

Are they right, honestly I don’t know I’m not an expert, like any science, they are until proven wrong which Vorpal's linked article appeared to do, but in reality it was just another opposing view that helps balance the discussion.

But I was also clear that like many things in cycling you should use whatever makes you happy and you feel comfortable with, people tour happily around the world with flat pedals, of course that’s sometimes as much to do with preferred shoes than cycling efficiency. But I don’t know any “road” racers or time trialists who use them, the people with the greatest interest in efficiency.

This is all academic and a distraction re the OP and his problem which is evidently more about being new to cycling than technique or pedal type. He’s had some great simple advice from everyone here. One more bit would be to join your local cycling club, they’ll keep you right.
Now off out on the bike.
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Re: Why do my quads hurt and tire so quickly?

Post by Jdsk »

PhilD28 wrote: 1 Jul 2021, 9:34amBut I was also clear that like many things in cycling you should use whatever makes you happy and you feel comfortable with, people tour happily around the world with flat pedals, of course that’s sometimes as much to do with preferred shoes than cycling efficiency.
Yes. And I'd add the willingness to experiment to find out what suits you.

Jonathan
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